Could fats really play?

[backplaying]

Could fats ever play above the level of a good shortstop? I watched him play 35yrs ago and he couldn't play a lick.I asked him to play and know of many more players that asked him to play and he never would. I just always assumed he was just a showboat to get attention,"it worked". If this was the case he was just a actor from what I've seen and been told. I know many on here know the truth,could he ever play at a high level? If he couldn't he laid town a scam the media ate up because his name has been heard of by more people than anyother pool player ever!

 

[NH Steve]

Could fats ever play above the level of a good shortstop? I watched him play 35yrs ago and he couldn't play a lick.I asked him to play and know of many more players that asked him to play and he never would. I just always assumed he was just a showboat to get attention,"it worked". If this was the case he was just a actor from what I've seen and been told. I know many on here know the truth,could he ever play at a high level? If he couldn't he laid town a scam the media ate up because his name has been heard of by more people than anyother pool player ever!

Oldtimers like Eddie Taylor put him only a notch below the top players, back when he could play. By the time you played him 35 years ago, he would have been 60. They also say he matched up real well, and despite his banter, approached matches very carefully -- staying well-rested himself, while preying on the the late-night carousing better player Richie Florence at Johnston City, for example. They all say his best game was first billiards, then Banks, and then One Pocket. Whenever an early player happened to mention how Fats traveled, they always mention things like brand new Cadilac, Dusenberg, etc, as well as an entourage of attractive women, so obviously Fats did alright back in the day. It sounds like his big years were the 30's and 40's.

I got some of the above talking to Eddie Taylor and George Rood. George is still living, 93 years old, and ran out a set of 9-ball against Fats when George was about 16 years old.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Fats

Fats

Could fats ever play above the level of a good shortstop? I watched him play 35yrs ago and he couldn't play a lick.I asked him to play and know of many more players that asked him to play and he never would. I just always assumed he was just a showboat to get attention,"it worked". If this was the case he was just a actor from what I've seen and been told. I know many on here know the truth,could he ever play at a high level? If he couldn't he laid town a scam the media ate up because his name has been heard of by more people than anyother pool player ever!

I used to wonder if Fats could play and at what level. I finally asked Cornbread to give an honest opinion about Fats. He told me that he played Fats even one-pocket at the Kelly Cue in East Detroit. He said they played for three days and broke even. That was the only opinion that I ever needed to guage Fats' level of play.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I used to wonder if Fats could play and at what level. I finally asked Cornbread to give an honest opinion about Fats. He told me that he played Fats even one-pocket at the Kelly Cue in East Detroit. He said they played for three days and broke even. That was the only opinion that I ever needed to guage Fats' level of play.

Cowboy,

Did he tell you the time frame ? Red played all games pretty sporty, but I don't think he ever figured 1P was his best game, did he ?
I always had Fats at least a ball or more under the best players of his era.
Rags, Taylor, etc. He was sure strong in the match-up dept. though wasn't he.
Dick

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Red vs Fats

Red vs Fats

Cowboy,

Did he tell you the time frame ? Red played all games pretty sporty, but I don't think he ever figured 1P was his best game, did he ?
I always had Fats at least a ball or more under the best players of his era.
Rags, Taylor, etc. He was sure strong in the match-up dept. though wasn't he.
Dick

No Dick, I do not recall a time frame when they played. But Red told me this in the mid-eighties. I always thought that Red played better but maybe in his early days he didn't play one-pocket as well. As far as Reds best games from the time I knew him, I would say that one-pocket on a snooker table was his best ,hands down. Then on a pool table. And as good as he banked I would rate his 9-ball game next if it was 2 foul 9-ball. When he got to hittin' them good it looked like the balls were jumping into the pockets for protection. I guess some of the more experienced players know a lot more than I do about Reds early days. I always enjoy any posts or stories on him.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

No Dick, I do not recall a time frame when they played. But Red told me this in the mid-eighties. I always thought that Red played better but maybe in his early days he didn't play one-pocket as well. As far as Reds best games from the time I knew him, I would say that one-pocket on a snooker table was his best ,hands down. Then on a pool table. And as good as he banked I would rate his 9-ball game next if it was 2 foul 9-ball. When he got to hittin' them good it looked like the balls were jumping into the pockets for protection. I guess some of the more experienced players know a lot more than I do about Reds early days. I always enjoy any posts or stories on him.

Red was a champion he played everything great nineball banks onepocket and snooker. Red played top speed he was a champion. With all the other champions and if REd played anyone Banks Onepocket or nineball nobody would have to beat red nobody not even efren. Thats how good Red played. He was up thier with all the great players. And Fats could not beat beat red at nothing. And even a woffing contest red was real close to fats. And Red played for big money. He was a big money player. And he had heart he would play anybody. And he played great snooker. REd was one of the greatest caracters ever. And it would be hard to pick someone over him. AS a caracter. And red was a crowed pleaser. And Fats was number one in life as a crowed pleaser. THe were both loved by thier piers and respected. And the world will miss both of them.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Red vs Fats

Red vs Fats

Red was a champion he played everything great nineball banks onepocket and snooker. Red played top speed he was a champion. With all the other champions and if REd played anyone Banks Onepocket or nineball nobody would have to beat red nobody not even efren. Thats how good Red played. He was up thier with all the great players. And Fats could not beat beat red at nothing. And even a woffing contest red was real close to fats. And Red played for big money. He was a big money player. And he had heart he would play anybody. And he played great snooker. REd was one of the greatest caracters ever. And it would be hard to pick someone over him. AS a caracter. And red was a crowed pleaser. And Fats was number one in life as a crowed pleaser. THe were both loved by thier piers and respected. And the world will miss both of them.

Thanks Artie. I had forgotten the stories I had heard about Reds snooker game. I remember being told about him trapping some english snooker champion on a tight table and killing the guy. He loved the tightest tables he could find.

 

[androd]

Could fats ever play above the level of a good shortstop? I watched him play 35yrs ago and he couldn't play a lick.I asked him to play and know of many more players that asked him to play and he never would. I just always assumed he was just a showboat to get attention,"it worked". If this was the case he was just a actor from what I've seen and been told. I know many on here know the truth,could he ever play at a high level? If he couldn't he laid town a scam the media ate up because his name has been heard of by more people than anyother pool player ever!

YES, he could play, on a freshly covered table he was almost unbeatable because he banked so well on them. He was in houston in the early 60's , he beat Johnny (Cannonball) Chapman. U.J.Puckett, Danny Jones couldn't find a stakehorse. I asked Marcel Camp (mentioned in "betting their own" thread ) if he could beat Fats, he said he had, but fats had won more often, including winning Camps new convertible.

 

[onepocket926]

Could fats ever play above the level of a good shortstop? I watched him play 35yrs ago and he couldn't play a lick.I asked him to play and know of many more players that asked him to play and he never would. I just always assumed he was just a showboat to get attention,"it worked". If this was the case he was just a actor from what I've seen and been told. I know many on here know the truth,could he ever play at a high level? If he couldn't he laid town a scam the media ate up because his name has been heard of by more people than anyother pool player ever!

...I remember 40 some years ago.....Vern Perterson....(Billiard Palace...Bellflower, California)...offered Fats $ 1000.00...guaranteed to come out and play a match...Fats never did take him up on it.....although...Vern told me...that Fats was the only guy he knew...that could eat an entire Turkey in one sitting...said he saw him do it for the cash.....might have been a Fairy Tail...but Vern swore it was true...lol..

 

[Bobby]

I've been told by several old-timers that Fats best game was banks and even then he was slightly under the top players. They say his next best game was one pocket but even then he was 1-2 balls under the top players. I was told that his 9-ball and straight pool wasn't good at all....this is just what I've been told. However they all told me that he was really good at making a game, negotiating a spot that he could win.

 

[NH Steve]

It probably also should be mentioned that there are a few genuine players, like Danny Di Liberto, that have very little respect for Fats. I think it rankled him that Fats braggadocio drew so much press, and showed so little respect for all those other genuine players.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Every time a thread about Fats comes up, it seems the consensus from those in the know was he was a ball or 2 under the top players of his day in one hole. But doesn't that also make him a top player?

As an example, today if Efren spots Cliff 2 balls, they are both still top players of the day.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Matching up

Matching up

Every time a thread about Fats comes up, it seems the consensus from those in the know was he was a ball or 2 under the top players of his day in one hole. But doesn't that also make him a top player?

As an example, today if Efren spots Cliff 2 balls, they are both still top players of the day.

You are correct. Almost every thread I see about Fats ends up being about how tough he matched up. I do not remember too many threads about Red playing anyone more than even. Unless he was giving up the weight. I may have missed some threads, but that's what I remember. Fats was definitely up there as far as players are concerned, at least in my book. Which ain't worth much.

 

[backplaying]

fats

fats

Does anyone know the year he was born? I also agree that the top players at that time should have been a little hot that he made the media believe he was the best player to ever live when I'm sure Willie could have given him some monster weight along with several others. I would be curious to know if Red was playing his top speed or still learning when he said he broke even with fats.If he was then he could play. I was told by a old retired hustler years ago that ali and fats could trash talk better than anyone except that ali could back his up.

 

[Bobby]

Does anyone know the year he was born? I also agree that the top players at that time should have been a little hot that he made the media believe he was the best player to ever live when I'm sure Willie could have given him some monster weight along with several others. I would be curious to know if Red was playing his top speed or still learning when he said he broke even with fats.If he was then he could play. I was told by a old retired hustler years ago that ali and fats could trash talk better than anyone except that ali could back his up.

He was born in 1913, the same year as Mosconi. If I were a top player I'd definitely be more than a little peeved that Fats got all the fame despite never winninga single tournament. Can you think of any other sport or game where that can happen? I mean it's like someone claiming they're a better tennis player than Roger Federer even though they've never won an event! Not a single person in the world would take the claim seriously. In any other game or sport you have to produce concrete results time and time again to be taken seriously.

 

[jay helfert]

I guess I have to answer this question at least once a decade. FATS COULD PLAY! He did play a ball under the top players in One Pocket, but no one was rushing out to match up with him. If you locked Fats in a room with all the top players, he would come out with all the money! I hope that makes sense to everyone.

I did see Fats gamble three times and all with top players. He won all three times, including beating Richie out of twenty five grand, getting a ball (in the 60's). By the way, Fats finished second to Johnny Vevis in the first Johnston City tourney, with fourteen of the best One Pocket players entered. It may have been the only tournament he ever played in.

I never saw anyone who could shoot one very tricky One Pocket bank better than Fats. If the object ball is between the first and second diamond (on or near the rail) and the cue ball is down near his pocket, he could bank that ball back down into his pocket with amazing accuracy, and send the cue ball three rails for position. He made that shot look like a hanger.

Mosconi didn't like Fats because he got hustled by him once. Fats wanted to play Banks and Willie wanted to play Straight Pool. So Fats thought up a new game, Bank Every Other Ball. Guess how that game turned out? Fats told me that Willie emptied out the cash register in his dad's pool room. They were never too friendly after that.

 

[fred bentivegna]

The great Fat Man

The great Fat Man

I guess I have to answer this question at least once a decade. FATS COULD PLAY! He did play a ball under the top players in One Pocket, but no one was rushing out to match up with him. If you locked Fats in a room with all the top players, he would come out with all the money! I hope that makes sense to everyone.

I did see Fats gamble three times and all with top players. He won all three times, including beating Richie out of twenty five grand, getting a ball (in the 60's). By the way, Fats finished second to Johnny Vevis in the first Johnston City tourney, with fourteen of the best One Pocket players entered. It may have been the only tournament he ever played in.

I never saw anyone who could shoot one very tricky One Pocket bank better than Fats. If the object ball is between the first and second diamond (on or near the rail) and the cue ball is down near his pocket, he could bank that ball back down into his pocket with amazing accuracy, and send the cue ball three rails for position. He made that shot look like a hanger.

Mosconi didn't like Fats because he got hustled by him once. Fats wanted to play Banks and Willie wanted to play Straight Pool. So Fats thought up a new game, Bank Every Other Ball. Guess how that game turned out? Fats told me that Willie emptied out the cash register in his dad's pool room. They were never too friendly after that.

I certainly agree with Jay that Fatty could play. I watched him and Ronnie play the most phenomenal session of 1pkt I ever seen. (incidentally Jay, Fatty came in 4th in the 1st JC tourney, not 2nd) Ronnie was at the top of his game and spotted Fats 9 to 7. They must have played 20 games in an hour. Ronnie ran 9 and out, then Fats would run 7 and out. Plus, Fatty's sevens were much prettier than Ronnie's nines. Ronnie might make 3 banks in his run. Fatty would only shoot one bank, the first one, to get started. After that he ran the balls like Mosconi. I watched Fats beat CornBread and Weenie Beanie at Johnston City also. At the Tampa tourn (the 60s) when Don Watson won the 1pkt., and Harold Worst made his debut, Fatty played 1pkt dead even with Marshall Squirrel Carpenter for $400 a game and ran 4 eight and outs in a row. He could also eat as much as they say he could eat. He was in a deli with Eddie Chait (a pool bug from Chicago) and when it came time to order, Fats couldnt make up his mind, (he also might not have been able to read the writing, it was hinted that he was illiterate) he solved the dilemma by telling the waitress, "Just gimme the whole page."

the Beard

 

[Fatboy]

Red was a champion he played everything great nineball banks onepocket and snooker. Red played top speed he was a champion. With all the other champions and if REd played anyone Banks Onepocket or nineball nobody would have to beat red nobody not even efren. Thats how good Red played. He was up thier with all the great players. And Fats could not beat beat red at nothing. And even a woffing contest red was real close to fats. And Red played for big money. He was a big money player. And he had heart he would play anybody. And he played great snooker. REd was one of the greatest caracters ever. And it would be hard to pick someone over him. AS a caracter. And red was a crowed pleaser. And Fats was number one in life as a crowed pleaser. THe were both loved by thier piers and respected. And the world will miss both of them.

Red is my favorite old school player!!!! met him once-he liked me.

As far as Fats goes being a ball or 2 or 3 behind the top guys is still real strong. Anyone at that level then or now can play-period.

Perhaps his "act" over shadowed his game in his later years-thats the best description to explain what happened from what I can conclude but I wasnt there. He played weaker as he got older but became a stronger showman. is that a good explaination???? when one "game" gets weak come up with a new one thats stronger. We all get older and smarter, or hopefully we do. I'm asking here, do you guys agree???-I really respect all you old school players, ALOT!!

 

[backplaying]

fats

fats

I just don't think it's fair that everyone that doesn't really know the truth thinks that fats was the best player ever. I think the true best should have been reconized as true household names as they deserved it, instead of someone who played two balls under them! I understand all the self-promotion he did and that's why he was seen as the best.He made them believe it,but I think the truth should be told for a historical matter. I could be in a room with the best players in the world, and leave with the money by matching up right ,but that wouldn't make me the best player or I wouldn't have needed the weight.I'm not meaning to degrade fats by wanting the truth told.

 

[Deeman]

It used to steam Danny Diliberto that Fats was getting all that attention. He would tell everyone, Yes, laugh at him and let him get away with his stories and one day, he'll be thought of as the best and you guys will not even be remembered.

Maybe Danny was right. I saw Fats play but not in his prime and never for anything serious. I was always entertained by his personality. I was, of course, east to entertain.