Comparing 9' to 7'

[Pelican]

Since the playing surface ratio is 2 to 1 on a bar box and a 9 footer would the banking angles be the same? For instance, Freddy, would your 1.6, 2.6 and 3.3 work the same on a 7'er?
Any of y'all ever play banks on a barbox?
Inquiring minds want to know.


Thanks, Pel

 

[usblues]

same-same

same-same

all 7-8-9 footers play the same.3 diamonds each rail,short and long.Numbers work the same for 9-10 3-cushion tables.Only difference the billiard tables will have an extra diamond on the long rail where a pocket would be so you have to adjust,no big thing with practice.Cue ball numbers and 1st and 3rd rail numbers are the same.play ball gentlemen

 

[fred bentivegna]

About the same, I'd say

About the same, I'd say

Since the playing surface ratio is 2 to 1 on a bar box and a 9 footer would the banking angles be the same? For instance, Freddy, would your 1.6, 2.6 and 3.3 work the same on a 7'er?
Any of y'all ever play banks on a barbox?
Inquiring minds want to know.


Thanks, Pel

Pretty much the same, Pel. The key is that the pocket is much larger than the object ball, so you always have margin or error. This way angles dont have to be absolutely perfect.
Its funny, but I had a much better batting average playing banks on a bar table than anywhere else, even tho I didnt get all that much action playing bumps on the little table. Some notable victims included, One Eyed Tony Howard, Buddy Hall and Fat Chino.

Beard

Beard

 

[Pelican]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I see what you mean Freddie. Any fractional amount of error has less effect on the smaller table as the ball has less distance to travel for the error to rear it's ugly head. Therefore a ball that hits the facing and drops on the 7 foot might not get enough facing on the 9 foot since it had more distance to travel and the angle of error took more of an effect.

Any of this crap sound rignt?

Thaks again, Pel

 

[fred bentivegna]

Very astute

Very astute

Thanks for the replies.

I think I see what you mean Freddie. Any fractional amount of error has less effect on the smaller table as the ball has less distance to travel for the error to rear it's ugly head. Therefore a ball that hits the facing and drops on the 7 foot might not get enough facing on the 9 foot since it had more distance to travel and the angle of error took more of an effect.

Any of this crap sound rignt?

Thaks again, Pel

Right. The bar tables are just basically easier to make a ball on.

Beard

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Since the playing surface ratio is 2 to 1 on a bar box and a 9 footer would the banking angles be the same? For instance, Freddy, would your 1.6, 2.6 and 3.3 work the same on a 7'er?
Any of y'all ever play banks on a barbox?
Inquiring minds want to know.


Thanks, Pel

Pelican,

I don't know about Freddy's systems but I do know this; the same three-railers on a 10' table will go short on a smaller table unless compensated for in aiming. To my knowledge & in my experience most diamond systems that work on a 10' table come up shorter on a 9' or an 8' or a 7' table.

I'm guessing that the balls simply don't have time to "open up" and go longer.

Dennis

 

[lll]

Pelican,

I don't know about Freddy's systems but I do know this; the same three-railers on a 10' table will go short on a smaller table unless compensated for in aiming. To my knowledge & in my experience most diamond systems that work on a 10' table come up shorter on a 9' or an 8' or a 7' table.

I'm guessing that the balls simply don't have time to "open up" and go longer.

Dennis

maybe its because the tables are SHORTER
im just being a smart alek

 

[usblues]

steeper

steeper

Right you are my friend,also the cloth,if its the correct cloth for a 10 foot 3-cushion table, like 300 Rapide[Simonis] or Granito A gives you a much steeper[long] angle coming off a rail than any other kind to be found on pocket tables.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Diamond systems

Diamond systems

Pelican,

I don't know about Freddy's systems but I do know this; the same three-railers on a 10' table will go short on a smaller table unless compensated for in aiming. To my knowledge & in my experience most diamond systems that work on a 10' table come up shorter on a 9' or an 8' or a 7' table.

I'm guessing that the balls simply don't have time to "open up" and go longer.

Dennis

I was just speaking generally, and mostly about short 1 rail shots. The Hoppe Diamond System (the one that wasnt invented by Willie Hoppe) does not work on a table smaller than a 5 x 10. ie., the basic formula numbers, starting cue ball position,"5" (diamond #8 actually, starting at the corner) to diamond #3 on the opposite rail will take you to diamond #2 on the opposite long rail, which will take you to the corner opposite "5," because diamond #2 leads to the corner. 5 minus 3 equals 2, which takes you to the corner.

On a 4 1/2 x 9, using the same formula 5-3 to 2, will take you a diamond short on the long rail. On a 4 1/2 by 9 the formula is 5 to 2 1/2 which takes you to 2 1/2 which leads to the corner. Diamond 2 1/2 leads to the corner on a 4 1/2 x 9.

Beard
The difference is more a matter of the cushions, not the cloth. Pool cushions were rated as K-55 and K-66 rails. The old billiard cushions were rated "1845 rails" I believe. They have evolved and play much shorter now. Remember billiard balls are bigger than pool balls, so the cushions are a little higher.

 

[Pelican]

Thanks guys

Thanks guys

All I be know is, banks go a lot easier on my 7" Valley than on my 9" diamond I got from Grady that has procut deep shelf pockets. Imagine that

Thanks everyone for the replies,

Later, Pel

 

[usblues]

gracious

gracious

Thanks Freddie

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I was just speaking generally, and mostly about short 1 rail shots. The Hoppe Diamond System (the one that wasnt invented by Willie Hoppe) does not work on a table smaller than a 5 x 10. ie., the basic formula numbers, starting cue ball position,"5" (diamond #8 actually, starting at the corner) to diamond #3 on the opposite rail will take you to diamond #2 on the opposite long rail, which will take you to the corner opposite "5," because diamond #2 leads to the corner. 5 minus 3 equals 2, which takes you to the corner.


Beard

Freddy,

I knew you were speaking generally and mostly about 1 rail banks. The "corner 5" diamond system is the only one I bothered to learn and still actually remember a little of .

When I was determined to learn it well I took a piece of drywall twice as long as it was wide (can't remember the size, maybe 10"x20") and covered it in clear plastic. I drew diamonds on it before covering it and divided the space between diamonds into 10 equi-distant points, thus being able to discern 1/10 of a diamond. I would practice in my head the diamond system on the drywall table that I made, it made it much easier when I was on the billiard table and a shot came up. I was on a 3-Cushion kick at the time.

When I had to kick 3 rails from my pocket to my opponents pocket (playing one-pocket), around the table I would go to his siderail and eyeball the shot and then very nonchalantly place a piece of chalk where I wanted to hit the first rail. Nobody ever noticed me doing this and it was a great aiming aid as you cannot see the diamonds on a Gold Crown when you are down in a shooting stance, at least I couldn't. The shot doesn't come up too often but it's nice to know with certainty where to aim instead of guessing. Of course, concessions must be made to the shorter table and I had to learn to compensate for it.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Freddy,

I knew you were speaking generally and mostly about 1 rail banks. The "corner 5" diamond system is the only one I bothered to learn and still actually remember a little of .

When I was determined to learn it well I took a piece of drywall twice as long as it was wide (can't remember the size, maybe 10"x20") and covered it in clear plastic. I drew diamonds on it before covering it and divided the space between diamonds into 10 equi-distant points, thus being able to discern 1/10 of a diamond. I would practice in my head the diamond system on the drywall table that I made, it made it much easier when I was on the billiard table and a shot came up. I was on a 3-Cushion kick at the time.

When I had to kick 3 rails from my pocket to my opponents pocket (playing one-pocket), around the table I would go to his siderail and eyeball the shot and then very nonchalantly place a piece of chalk where I wanted to hit the first rail. Nobody ever noticed me doing this and it was a great aiming aid as you cannot see the diamonds on a Gold Crown when you are down in a shooting stance, at least I couldn't. The shot doesn't come up too often but it's nice to know with certainty where to aim instead of guessing. Of course, concessions must be made to the shorter table and I had to learn to compensate for it.

Dennis

Dear Bar Rag Breath,

This belongs in an "aiming thread, on AZB...Is everyone stoopid, or what ?....If you were in an actual game, and you are on a wet or dry table, (hugh difference)... a super IBM engineering calculator could not find, were you need to hit the first rail.... If you don't know where to hit the f-ing ball,...why don't you just pass, and let your opponent shoot...Good luck wi' dat...cheeeeesze

El Duck <----Wonders why anybody even talks about this s**t ???....

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dear Bar Rag Breath,

This belongs in an "aiming thread, on AZB...Is everyone stoopid, or what ?....If you were in an actual game, and you are on a wet or dry table, (hugh difference)... a super IBM engineering calculator could not find, were you need to hit the first rail.... If you don't know where to hit the f-ing ball,...why don't you just pass, and let your opponent shoot...Good luck wi' dat...cheeeeesze

El Duck <----Wonders why anybody even talks about this s**t ???....

Dearest Duckbrain,

If I hadn't wrote that what would you have to respond to??? You are so f@@kin' easy this isn't any fun . Try being less predictable in the future. Gotta go now and work OT to earn the cash for my own booze since you won't send the 22 bottles you owe me .

RBL

 

[lll]

I was just speaking generally, and mostly about short 1 rail shots. The Hoppe Diamond System (the one that wasnt invented by Willie Hoppe) does not work on a table smaller than a 5 x 10. ie., the basic formula numbers, starting cue ball position,"5" (diamond #8 actually, starting at the corner) to diamond #3 on the opposite rail will take you to diamond #2 on the opposite long rail, which will take you to the corner opposite "5," because diamond #2 leads to the corner. 5 minus 3 equals 2, which takes you to the corner.

On a 4 1/2 x 9, using the same formula 5-3 to 2, will take you a diamond short on the long rail. On a 4 1/2 by 9 the formula is 5 to 2 1/2 which takes you to 2 1/2 which leads to the corner. Diamond 2 1/2 leads to the corner on a 4 1/2 x 9.

Beard
The difference is more a matter of the cushions, not the cloth. Pool cushions were rated as K-55 and K-66 rails. The old billiard cushions were rated "1845 rails" I believe. They have evolved and play much shorter now. Remember billiard balls are bigger than pool balls, so the cushions are a little higher.

freddy the system of starting position (5 ) minus target point number equals aiming rail number still works tho right?
if the track is 2 and one half to the corner than 5 - 2 1/2 = 2 1/2 as your
target rail #
if the table is wet or dry you have your refernce points. when you practice before the match you see if table is running x amount long or short and adjust
your "tracks" and targets accordingly

those of you that play by feel beleive this is gobblee doo.
however if you havent played in a year and can still remeber the system you will be back to hitting 1,2,3,4 rail banks and kicks in a much shorter time than it will take to get your "feel" back
just sayin

this is NOT an aiming system but an accurate way the table plays based on geometry
and physics.
ive recently been shown several one ,and 2 rail "systems " and the accuracy is amazing to me.

similarly the correlation of tips of english related to diamonds where the ball will go and where on the cue you hit if viewed as a clock 1 vs 2 vs 3 etc. and how many tips from center to how many diamands cue ball will go from the tangent line has been a revelation for me who played purely by feel up until now
freddy spells out alot of this in his books and dvds with regards to banks and thickness of hit adjustments and english interplay

i still let my intuition take over and let the force be with me when i shoot by these new guidelines im learning have been very helpful

maybe those that are naturally gifted dont see any use for them but for us mortals i think they are beneficial

just my opinion

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

those of you that play by feel beleive this is gobblee doo.
however if you havent played in a year and can still remeber the system you will be back to hitting 1,2,3,4 rail banks and kicks in a much shorter time than it will take to get your "feel" back
just sayin

this is NOT an aiming system but an accurate way the table plays based on geometry
and physics.

just my opinion

Larry,

Those who don't use a proven method of aiming 3-rail & 4-rail kicks (and others) and instead rely on "feel" are simply players who had better things to do than learn how to play the game, no matter the speed they played. The diamond systems that can be learned when playing 3-cushion billiards are numerous and varied and a person would be remiss not to learn them. There's not much better than knowing exactly where the cueball is going rather than guessing, which is what "feel" players do.

Dennis

 

[fred bentivegna]

System, Shmisstem

System, Shmisstem

freddy the system of starting position (5 ) minus target point number equals aiming rail number still works tho right?
if the track is 2 and one half to the corner than 5 - 2 1/2 = 2 1/2 as your
target rail #
if the table is wet or dry you have your refernce points. when you practice before the match you see if table is running x amount long or short and adjust
your "tracks" and targets accordingly.

Of course! Before I would play a match on a strange table I would shoot a couple of 3 in the corners, and 2 in the corners to both foot pockets. That would tell me if the table was running long or short. Adding or subtracting to the system didnt take a Harvard grad.

those of you that play by feel beleive this is gobblee doo.
however if you havent played in a year and can still remeber the system you will be back to hitting 1,2,3,4 rail banks and kicks in a much shorter time than it will take to get your "feel" back
just sayin

this is NOT an aiming system but an accurate way the table plays based on geometry
and physics.
ive recently been shown several one ,and 2 rail "systems " and the accuracy is amazing to me.

similarly the correlation of tips of english related to diamonds where the ball will go and where on the cue you hit if viewed as a clock 1 vs 2 vs 3 etc. and how many tips from center to how many diamands cue ball will go from the tangent line has been a revelation for me who played purely by feel up until now
freddy spells out alot of this in his books and dvds with regards to banks and thickness of hit adjustments and english interplay

i still let my intuition take over and let the force be with me when i shoot by these new guidelines im learning have been very helpful

maybe those that are naturally gifted dont see any use for them but for us mortals i think they are beneficial

just my opinion

I was fortunate enough to have spent my formative years in Bensingers where they had 12 billiard tables and many good players, George Pentaris, Bud Harris, Don Tozer, Joe Procita, etc. I learned many valuable systems just from overhearing billiard conversations. Imagine what guys like Bill Smith picked up from a player like Ernie Presto who studied under, Cochran, Shaefer Jr, Hoppe, and Layton.

Those who knew him said Welker Cochran was a "feel" player. That he was. But what most dont know is that Cochran studied under Professor Lansing Perkins in Chicago, when he was just a little tyke, as did Shaefer Jr, and Willie Hoppe. Consequently, by the time he was 12 years old he had learned and absorbed every system available at the time.

In the old days we played on directional cloth, which meant that if the table was relatively level and the cloth had been put on in the correct direction, the table would always play a certain way.

2 and 3 railers would run long to the foot rail, and short to the head rail. Cross corners on the foot rail would break down to the foot rail and run long.
Cross corners shot on the head rail would tend to roll up and away from the pocket, running short. Straight backs shot to the foot rail would tend to roll out and away from the corner pockets. Straight backs shot to the head rail had a tendency to roll in slightly toward the long rails. All top 3 cush players know, and allow for this.

Spinning the ball with extreme english to one side or the other also produces different results. All english snooker players know how to make that adjustment on the 6 x 12's. Spinning a ball toward the head rail results in the ball continuing to turn slightly in the direction of the english applied. Conversely, spinning the cue ball toward the foot rail at a slow speed results in the cue ball "catching" in the grain of the cloth that is running toward the foot rail, and the ball quits turning in the direction that the english was applied, and straightens out instead and continues long to the foot rail.

Todays cloth is mostly non directional, but still retains a modicum of the effects I described above.

Now just imagine a poor sumbitch not knowing all of that and just guessing every shot. How much the worst of it would you think he was taking?

How do you think I ever beat anybody without having the long hard shot in my bag of tricks?

 

[wgcp]

Systems

Systems

I have tried to learn these and have most memorized, however being a poor dumb guy from mississippi taking my shoes off to count and subtract in the pool hall is still a little embarrassing ...

B

 

[lll]

I have tried to learn these and have most memorized, however being a poor dumb guy from mississippi taking my shoes off to count and subtract in the pool hall is still a little embarrassing ...

B

some people do have trouble with systems
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM2LjQrwO6g&feature=PlayList&p=895F5CEC048CED32&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9[/ame]

 

[onepocket926]

....I've played it....

....I've played it....

...I've played banks on a bar box....I was stuck in Oregon...for a few years and all there was......was bar boxes and 8 ball......played banks just to change it up...and none of them "fishermen"....could bank a ball......they were pretty lop-sided matches....one night after league...I was beating this guy so bad...he doubled the bet...and we changed the game....to "Golf" on a 7'er (with buckets for pockets).....LMFAO...do ya think he liked that game any better......