buddy jeremy #2

onepockethacker

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If you look at buddy Hall in the original shot I think what Buddy is looking at from that position he is standing is what ball banks straight back if he 3 rails either the 13 or 2 ball. That is really the only thing he could be looking at from that position and that is why he chose to 3 rail the 13 ball
 

Tom Wirth

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Rob, that is an astute observation. I think you got into his head with that thought.

Tom
 

androd

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As slow as Buddy played, he often went into "fugues" like that. :D
Rod.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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This was from when I could pocket a ball. And to also address Dennis' concerns, I would know where those 3 balls were going (approximately), they are going to be opened up and all on my side. I would not use a speed that would risk them being knocked over to the other side. Plus, I would make sure that no matter what the cue ball would be on the back rail. Worst I could do is leave a cross corner -- long cross corner -- and he would have hell to pay to shoot at one of those and not leave me a bank or a shot.

I am in total agreement with the step on his neck line of thinking.

Beard

Still waiting for a fu*kin cookie!:frus
Fred,

You may just carom the 10 in the side off the 2 or the 2 off the 10. If either happens the ball spots up, why take the chance? I've told you what I don't like about your shot choice; please tell me what you don't like about banking the 10 back near the footrail(as I've diagrammed) and forcing (probably) JJ to remove it? Just what is wrong with that shot in your mind?

Dennis
 

fred bentivegna

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I just took this diagram down to my Gold Crown, and as I suspected, and as I indicated, and as I would bet my ****in money on, both shots are demonstrably subject to violent kisses. The only sure way to beat the kiss on the 2 ball is to use high ball, no english. Unfortunately, that will bring the cue ball down the table to the foot rail where if the shot is missed, a cross corner will present itself to your opponent.

Billy Incardona was right the first time when he spotted a kiss.

Beard
 

Island Drive

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I just took this diagram down to my Gold Crown, and as I suspected, and as I indicated, and as I would bet my ****in money on, both shots are demonstrably subject to violent kisses. The only sure way to beat the kiss on the 2 ball is to use high ball, no english. Unfortunately, that will bring the cue ball down the table to the foot rail where if the shot is missed, a cross corner will present itself to your opponent.

Billy Incardona was right the first time when he spotted a kiss.

Beard
Saw Efren do the near identical sell out as you described playing Neils, just barely missed the dbl kiss yet landed whitey behind one of the three balls still in play allowing a mini sell out. Pretty sure efren needed one and neils needed 2. It's like if ya can beat the kiss, ya can always count on whitey pretty much doin' the same thing, heading for the head rail hole....your side.
 
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wincardona

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I just took this diagram down to my Gold Crown, and as I suspected, and as I indicated, and as I would bet my ****in money on, both shots are demonstrably subject to violent kisses. The only sure way to beat the kiss on the 2 ball is to use high ball, no english. Unfortunately, that will bring the cue ball down the table to the foot rail where if the shot is missed, a cross corner will present itself to your opponent.

Billy Incardona was right the first time when he spotted a kiss.

Beard
Maybe we're setting up the shot differently. The 2ball is a shot that's easy to beat the kiss, I shot it 15 times and never got a kiss, made it twice. Which is my point, if you can execute a shot, whether its a cut shot, a billiard, a combination, or a three rail bank, if it's the correct shot then why wouldn't you shoot it? This debate isn't about whether the bank is a kiss, Imo it 's about staying aggressive when it's needed, providing you have the skills to execute. I have more experience playing top players than anyone on this site or probably any other site and i'm not saying this to brag that's not the point. The point is that I truly understand how often great players surmount leads, especially when you wait for them like many on this site are suggesting. I can totally understand that 95% of all players have the luxury of playing passively in situations similar to this one because their playing players that won't hurt them as much as top players. However, if you have the skills to execute certain shots that carry a higher degree of difficulty and you're playing a top player then you should play with more aggression. My opinion isn't based on assumption, it's based off of actual hands on experience, 50 years of it.

Playing passively is more comfortable to most players, particularly those that don't do well under pressure, however, playing aggressively when you're skilled enough to do so makes other players uncomfortable. Also playing passively will make other players comfortable, and when the other player is a top player all the passive play in the world ain't gonna help ya.:sorry

It's really all about applying pressure and understanding the skills you have and using them. There's a difference between shooting shots that are low percentage, as opposed to shooting shots that carry a higher degree of difficulty that you have the skills to execute. If you have the skills to execute tougher shots no longer are they low percentage shots. Knowing when to play aggressively is a matter of discretion that is based off of conditions. Understanding conditions, which entails not only table conditions but also understanding the ability of your opponents, and handle it accordingly.

Example: Playing a lesser player with a 7 to 4 lead I may not play the 3 railer and opt to play off the 10ball, however, playing Shane, or Alex i'm shooting the 3 railer all day every day, providing I feel comfortable with the shot. Which I would shooting the 2ball three rails.


.Play more often, develop your skills for playing strong, and play with confidence. You'll win your share and more.

Dr. Bill
 
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fred bentivegna

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Maybe we're setting up the shot differently. The 2ball is a shot that's easy to beat the kiss, I shot it 15 times and never got a kiss, made it twice. Which is my point, if you can execute a shot, whether its a cut shot, a billiard, a combination, or a three rail bank, if it's the correct shot then why wouldn't you shoot it? This debate isn't about whether the bank is a kiss, Imo it 's about staying aggressive when it's needed, providing you have the skills to execute. I have more experience playing top players than anyone on this site or probably any other site and i'm not saying this to brag that's not the point. The point is that I truly understand how often great players surmount leads, especially when you wait for them like many on this site are suggesting. I can totally understand that 95% of all players have the luxury of playing passively in situations similar to this one because their playing players that won't hurt them as much as top players. However, if you have the skills to execute certain shots that carry a higher degree of difficulty and you're playing a top player then you should play with more aggression. My opinion isn't based on assumption, it's based off of actual hands on experience, 50 years of it.

Playing passively is more comfortable to most players, particularly those that don't do well under pressure, however, playing aggressively when you're skilled enough to do so makes other players uncomfortable. Also playing passively will make other players comfortable, and when the other player is a top player all the passive play in the world ain't gonna help ya.:sorry

It's really all about applying pressure and understanding the skills you have and using them. There's a difference between shooting shots that are low percentage, as opposed to shooting shots that carry a higher degree of difficulty that you have the skills to execute. If you have the skills to execute tougher shots no longer are they low percentage shots. Knowing when to play aggressively is a matter of discretion that is based off of conditions. Understanding conditions, which entails not only table conditions but also understanding the ability of your opponents, and handle it accordingly.

Example: Playing a lesser player with a 7 to 4 lead I may not play the 3 railer and opt to play off the 10ball, however, playing Shane, or Alex i'm shooting the 3 railer all day every day, providing I feel comfortable with the shot. Which I would shooting the 2ball three rails.


.Play more often, develop your skills for playing strong, and play with confidence. You'll win your share and more.

Dr. Bill

Your reasoning is all wonderful, nothing wrong with that, but the basis of this exercise is the position of the balls, and none of your reasoning is valid if the 2 and 13 balls are heading for a kiss.:sorry

Plus what is missing from your commentary is how you managed to beat the 2 ball kiss, and where did the cue ball wind up? I could only beat it by bringing the cue ball down table with the object ball.

I already gave up the skinny on the shot, that is, a 1/2 ball hit turns the kiss light on.

Beard
 

tylerdurden

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I set the three railer up ten times with a few slight variations taking into consideration that the image shown may distort the true position of the balls.
I got a kiss three times, made the shot twice, came close two other times, the rest came up short and ended on the short rail. A few of the shots which missed the kiss where somewhat close and a few others where well out of the way of the kiss. For me the jury is still out on the three rail bank on the two. I didn't try the thirteen ball.

Dr. Bill, If Buddy can be sure of no kiss on the two than by all means bank it for the win. If on the other hand there is any doubt about the kiss then IMO the shot must be avoided.

Tom
This will by NO means solve anything, but do you remember what happened the 3 times you did in fact get the kiss? Did you ever go in the hole?

As they are saying, it probably would still be pretty grim for jeremy even on the kisses.
 
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onepockethacker

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Your reasoning is all wonderful, nothing wrong with that, but the basis of this exercise is the position of the balls, and none of your reasoning is valid if the 2 and 13 balls are heading for a kiss.:sorry

Plus what is missing from your commentary is how you managed to beat the 2 ball kiss, and where did the cue ball wind up? I could only beat it by bringing the cue ball down table with the object ball.

I already gave up the skinny on the shot, that is, a 1/2 ball hit turns the kiss light on.

Beard
OK I set this up last night at the pool hall. 3 railing the 2 ball.. shot it 20 times.. made it 14 times.. hung it up 4 times.. and 2 times the table screwed me and it came up short and fell to the end rail a half diamond from my pocket... NO KISS:p:D:lol
 

wincardona

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Your reasoning is all wonderful, nothing wrong with that, but the basis of this exercise is the position of the balls, and none of your reasoning is valid if the 2 and 13 balls are heading for a kiss.:sorry

Plus what is missing from your commentary is how you managed to beat the 2 ball kiss, and where did the cue ball wind up? I could only beat it by bringing the cue ball down table with the object ball.

I already gave up the skinny on the shot, that is, a 1/2 ball hit turns the kiss light on.

Beard
if you can execute a shot, whether its a cut shot, a billiard, a combination, or a three rail bank, if it's the correct shot then why wouldn't you shoot it?
First let me start out by saying ...If the above question is a valid question and the answer is ...Yes you should shoot it....then my reasoning is sound. Which then makes the 2ball option a good shot simply because there isn't a kiss with the shot...at least the way I set it up.

Secondly...The 13ball option was laying more on the kiss angle becausethe cue ball action needed for the execution of this option was..a slower cue ball that was headed higher into the side rail which allowed the 13balll to catch up with the cue balll around the 1-1/2 diamond marker on the side rail.

Thirdly...with the 2ball option the type of action you should get with the cue ball sends it deeper and quicker toward the side rail around the 1st diamond marker which enables the cue ball to stay comfortably in front of the 2ball taking away the kiss. This option should be hit with a tip below center with outside english (right hand) the cue ball will be slowed after contacting the side rail and should end up about a foot to 1-1/2 feet off the bottom rail parallel with the 10 ball.


Lastly...Buddy shot the 13ball this option was lying more on the kiss angle for the reasons I explained, which you along with many more knowledgeable players agreed with. He executed the shot perfectly because he has the ability to execute shots better than just about anyone. Yes he could of gotten a kiss had he not executed the shot as well as he did but evidently he felt confident in his ability to choose the 13ball over the 2ball. Did that make Buddies decision a good one? Maybe not. Needing 1 ball to his opponents 4 balls with 4 balls left on the table put his choice in the red area because of the difficulty with the execution of the shot..regardless of the outcome. I believe what prompted Buddy to choose the 13ball was how the 3 remaining balls were positioned...difficult for Jeremy if Buddy errored with the hit.

Finally the summation: If what I stated is true then the 2ball option has to be not only a viable option but a very good option..providing you have the skills to execute the shot

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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This will by NO means solve anything, but do you remember what happened the 3 times you did in fact get the kiss? Did you ever go in the hole?

As they are saying, it probably would still be pretty grim for jeremy even on the kisses.



Tyler, the idea that I should shoot a shot with a high kiss potential because " Even with a kiss it probably would still be pretty grim for my opponent" is not something I want to rely upon unless I am forced into this decision. The situation we are dealing with in this thread is not one which requires aggressive thinking.

As I said before, taking the three rail shot is not a bad decision if the kiss is known not to be involved. However with the score 7 - 4 in your favor is there any legitimate reason to take a chance on losing control of a table which is currently in your control by getting a kiss? Now Buddy is a great player and his being at the table where he can see the minucia gives him a perspective we don't have. He probably knew he would beat the kiss in this instance. We on the other hand can't really know that because of the potential distortions camera angles create.

Billy I. and Rob have valid points in many of the things they have stated during the course of this thread but they have IMO left out one thing which I believe needs to be said. When Billy states that when playing great players an aggressive posture must be taken because the longer you allow a top player to remain in the game the more opportunity you give them to steal the game. This is true enough but it must be kept in mind that as a top player yourself ( in this case Buddy) you are keeping yourself in the game as well.

Buddy with his 7 -4 lead has as much ability to get the first legitimate shot as his opponent does. Maybe more being that the position of the balls favor him so much more. So the way I think about it is if I manage to take a few more balls out of play before going for something with potential trouble written on it I want to know I can't lose the game because of a single mistake on my part. Bill & Rob, that does not mean I won't be looking for an offensive shot to shoot. It simply means I will be a little more discriminatory about which shots I choose to take. I will still be setting traps and looking to be aggressive but with a couple other balls out of play my aggression is somewhat protected. Maybe this is just another school of thought.

Tom
 

Island Drive

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OP thread

OP thread

this is a replay
play the score ?? shoot at your hole??
View attachment 8393
How about shootin' the 13 firm into the ball by the upper l/s pocket and playing the 13 carom off that ball three rails, and center punch/walk whitey behind the two ball on your side. At worst you'll be putting a ball on his side on the head rail, but you could EASILY hide em behind those two balls. The shot lays almost natural for the thin clip of the 13.
 

fred bentivegna

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OK I set this up last night at the pool hall. 3 railing the 2 ball.. shot it 20 times.. made it 14 times.. hung it up 4 times.. and 2 times the table screwed me and it came up short and fell to the end rail a half diamond from my pocket... NO KISS:p:D:lol
Please describe how you shot the shot and where the cue ball traveled to.

Beard

Myself, I got plenty of kisses. Since I can beat kisses better than anybody on earth, I must no longer be #1. You must now be #1 and Cardone is #2. :lol

Beard
 

bstroud

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This thread seems to me to be leading to different approaches to playing one pocket.

Those players like ME that prefer to win or lose in their inning and those players that sit around and wait for the Shooters to fail.

If I had to wait around for my opponent to LOSE, I would give up pool and take up knitting.

Bill S.
 

Tom Wirth

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This thread seems to me to be leading to different approaches to playing one pocket.

Those players like ME that prefer to win or lose in their inning and those players that sit around and wait for the Shooters to fail.

If I had to wait around for my opponent to LOSE, I would give up pool and take up knitting.

Bill S.
So Bill, because your patience runs thin you would choose to fire away to win or lose just to get it over with? I don't remember anyone here suggesting waiting for their opponent to fail.

When you play chess do you come out with the queen within the first few moves or do you try to set up your attack with forethought?

Tom
 

wincardona

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Please describe how you shot the shot and where the cue ball traveled to.

Beard

Myself, I got plenty of kisses. Since I can beat kisses better than anybody on earth, I must no longer be #1. You must now be #1 and Cardone is #2. :lol

Beard
Not necessarily, if you practice your 3 rail banks from various positions you very well may earnthat #1 ranking again. :sorry:D

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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[/B]


Tyler, the idea that I should shoot a shot with a high kiss potential because " Even with a kiss it probably would still be pretty grim for my opponent" is not something I want to rely upon unless I am forced into this decision. The situation we are dealing with in this thread is not one which requires aggressive thinking.

As I said before, taking the three rail shot is not a bad decision if the kiss is known not to be involved. However with the score 7 - 4 in your favor is there any legitimate reason to take a chance on losing control of a table which is currently in your control by getting a kiss? Now Buddy is a great player and his being at the table where he can see the minucia gives him a perspective we don't have. He probably knew he would beat the kiss in this instance. We on the other hand can't really know that because of the potential distortions camera angles create.

Billy I. and Rob have valid points in many of the things they have stated during the course of this thread but they have IMO left out one thing which I believe needs to be said. When Billy states that when playing great players an aggressive posture must be taken because the longer you allow a top player to remain in the game the more opportunity you give them to steal the game. This is true enough but it must be kept in mind that as a top player yourself ( in this case Buddy) you are keeping yourself in the game as well.

Buddy with his 7 -4 lead has as much ability to get the first legitimate shot as his opponent does. Maybe more being that the position of the balls favor him so much more. So the way I think about it is if I manage to take a few more balls out of play before going for something with potential trouble written on it I want to know I can't lose the game because of a single mistake on my part. Bill & Rob, that does not mean I won't be looking for an offensive shot to shoot. It simply means I will be a little more discriminatory about which shots I choose to take. I will still be setting traps and looking to be aggressive but with a couple other balls out of play my aggression is somewhat protected. Maybe this is just another school of thought.

Tom
There is much merit to what you say when you're talking about ..when two top players are competing against one another either player has the ability to hold their opponent better than a lesser player can. I'll give you that, however, that still doesn't convince me that you should pass up a free chance to win the game with a shot that you can control. Especially if your shot has a built in safety with a possible trap attached. Not to mention the fact that in this instance the balls were positioned unfavorably for Jeremy to do any real damage had Buddy errored.

Buddy shot a percentage shot that he thought favored him and made it. Personally I wouldn't of shot the 13ball unless I was 90% certain of missing the kiss, I would gamble on that 10% because the shot was a strong shot and I was playing a strong player. However, I would of definitely shot the 2ball three rails before playing off the 10ball playing a top player.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Larry, See what you started!

What all this bantering back and forth should tell you is there are many more ways to skin that cat than there are cats. So when you want to know what is the best shot given a tricky situation in One Pocket several factors must be considered.

The first consideration should be in understanding your own capabilities to effectually execute the shot which you most would like to shoot. That three rail shot may be just fine for Buddy, Billy I., Rob, or even myself because of the knowledge that the kiss is not there and the experience as to how best to play the shot. For others who would be guessing they may be far better off ducking and trying to find something better further down the road. Even the great players are capable of giving up a shot with decent expectations.

You have to ask yourself: If you can't hang with the big boys with a 7 -4 advantage and with all the balls working your way, then what are you doing playing this guy in the first place?

Tom
 
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