J. Henderson said something interesting

[tonygreen]

I try to use a loose grip, but it is not automatic and the harder the shot the more likely I am to tighten up. I often concentrate on the loose grip when attempting a bank that looks like it has a kiss in it. Per Freddy's book, an extreme loose grip on these shots helps speed up the cue ball and helps avoid the kiss.

I agree about the Filippinos. They move the cue ball around with what seems minimum effort.

I was reading a post from CJ Wiley (I assume it's actually him writing it) on AZ site about stroke and wrist and he made mention of SVB's wrist and the "cocking down" of the wrist.
CJ said ...
"The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball."

This is more prominent in OnePocket and I wondered if there is anything to gain either way ...
What Say You?

cheers

 

[jrhendy]

I was reading a post from CJ Wiley (I assume it's actually him writing it) on AZ site about stroke and wrist and he made mention of SVB's wrist and the "cocking down" of the wrist.
CJ said ...
"The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball."

This is more prominent in OnePocket and I wondered if there is anything to gain either way ...
What Say You?

cheers

I played Bustamante yesterday in our monthly 9 ball tournament at Hard Times.

Along with the loose grip, he extends through the cue ball farther and with more accuracy than anyone I have ever watched play.

I think most of us tighten the grip on a power shot, but he can get tremendous results with what appears to be a loose relaxed grip and follow through.

Might have something to do with why he is in the Hall of Fame

 

[lll]

tony i think there are 2 aspects being discussed here
loose grip and cj's "pre cocked "wrist
usually if you tighten your grip it inadvertently raises the cue tip so you dont hit the ball as low/high as you think you are and therefore get less action
cjs thing is different
the short version
he has his wrist bent foward (radial deviated for those who care)as you grip the cue at ball address
he beleives its the source of his power
id only say mike massey and a zillion other pool players have great stokes and dont do it that way(although at the end of their follow thru they may get to that position but not at ball address)
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=related[/ame]
vs cj look at how his wrist is so foward

 

[lll]

here is cj on the grip pressure
http://cjwiley.com/grip-pressure

 

[beatle]

flicking the wrist adds speed to your stroke. it also may make you less accurate by your tip moving off center. it may or may not for you.

the speed the tip hits the cue ball determines how far it rolls. loose or tight grip doesnt matter, its the speed. but loose grip lets you add speed more easily but the end result is the same.

hitting your spot is the most important thing

 

[vapros]

I have read several of the articles on that website. I have never seen even one C.J. Wiley story here, or seen his name mentioned. How come? Is he what he claims to be? Who knows C.J.?

 

[mr3cushion]

tony i think there are 2 aspects being discussed here
loose grip and cj's "pre cocked "wrist
usually if you tighten your grip it inadvertently raises the cue tip so you dont hit the ball as low/high as you think you are and therefore get less action
cjs thing is different
the short version
he has his wrist bent foward (radial deviated for those who care)as you grip the cue at ball address
he beleives its the source of his power
id only say mike massey and a zillion other pool players have great stokes and dont do it that way(although at the end of their follow thru they may get to that position but not at ball address)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=related
vs cj look at how his wrist is so foward
View attachment 7208

Larry; Here's an excerpt from my book, "The Concise Book of Position Play", chapter I, The Foundation basic-fundamentals.

The Grip
The proper full hand grip
The grip gives the player general control of the cue ball. Full finger grips are the most common choice among better players. The grip should rest in the palm of your hand; see Photo10, instead of lying in the player's fingers.

View attachment 7211
Photo 10
The players that use more of their wrists give more rotation to the cue as it is swung back and forth. You may want to use a finger grip when applying maximum effect to the cue ball, (the cue ball maintains spin on 3 or more cushions.) For most shots in 3 cushion billiards, (especially short-angle shots), you want to use as little wrist action as possible, for better control of the cue ball, and a consistent hit on the first ball or cushion.

The proper position of the elbow and arm at address
The proper position of the upper arm and elbow (lower arm) are the key to your stroke. All strokes are slightly different due to our different physiology, but we share the same basic fundamentals. A player's lower arm should be perpendicular to the floor and upper arm parallel to the floor, Photo 11. While stroking the cue, you will experience the wrist breaking prior to contacting the cue ball. This will bring rhythm, timing and consistency to your game.

View attachment 7210
Photo 11

Larry; This is my theory about the proper grip and position of the elbow and uppper arm and hand at address of the cue ball.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[lll]

Larry; Here's an excerpt from my book, "The Concise Book of Position Play", chapter I, The Foundation basic-fundamentals.

The Grip
The proper full hand grip
The grip gives the player general control of the cue ball. Full finger grips are the most common choice among better players. The grip should rest in the palm of your hand; see Photo10, instead of lying in the player's fingers.

View attachment 7211
Photo 10
The players that use more of their wrists give more rotation to the cue as it is swung back and forth. You may want to use a finger grip when applying maximum effect to the cue ball, (the cue ball maintains spin on 3 or more cushions.) For most shots in 3 cushion billiards, (especially short-angle shots), you want to use as little wrist action as possible, for better control of the cue ball, and a consistent hit on the first ball or cushion.

The proper position of the elbow and arm at address
The proper position of the upper arm and elbow (lower arm) are the key to your stroke. All strokes are slightly different due to our different physiology, but we share the same basic fundamentals. A player's lower arm should be perpendicular to the floor and upper arm parallel to the floor, Photo 11. While stroking the cue, you will experience the wrist breaking prior to contacting the cue ball. This will bring rhythm, timing and consistency to your game.

View attachment 7210
Photo 11

Larry; This is my theory about the proper grip and position of the elbow and uppper arm and hand at address of the cue ball.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

bill
i am a nobody in pool but i am a student of the game
you are a champion 3 cushion player
so i really dont want to get into an internet battle
so lets just agree to disagree
but i have NEVER seen a pool book advocate having the cue in your palm
here are two examples
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PevddF2gRh4[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn138p45udo&feature=related[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5qfSRulp74&feature=relmfu[/ame]
i could look for more examples but dr. dave and bob jewett are highly respected for their knowledge about pool

 

[gulfportdoc]

flicking the wrist adds speed to your stroke. it also may make you less accurate by your tip moving off center. it may or may not for you.

the speed the tip hits the cue ball determines how far it rolls. loose or tight grip doesnt matter, its the speed. but loose grip lets you add speed more easily but the end result is the same.

hitting your spot is the most important thing

Beatle, I agree with you. For 55 years I've seen, heard, and read top experts' advice regarding wrist and grip which are all completely different, but yet they're all represented as the best way to go. (BTW, along with Bill, Hal Mix also advocated the palm grip-- or palm down grip).

The only thing important is speed and direction. The cue ball reacts to the amplitude and velocity of the hit, period. It doesn't know what the shooter did to cause either of those. Buddy Hall has one of the best strokes in the business, and he firmly grips the cue's butt end with all 5 fingers with a stiff wrist.

There are a lot of tricks and idiosyncrasies that guys use which are unique to them for various purposes, but they serve only to allow for execution in their own way. What works for one guy may not work for another.

I like Grady's enitre instruction on the grip: "Grip the cue in such a way that it is comfortable"...

Doc

 

[Jimmy B]

Beatle, I agree with you. For 55 years I've seen, heard, and read top experts' advice regarding wrist and grip which are all completely different, but yet they're all represented as the best way to go. (BTW, along with Bill, Hal Mix also advocated the palm grip-- or palm down grip).

The only thing important is speed and direction. The cue ball reacts to the amplitude and velocity of the hit, period. It doesn't know what the shooter did to cause either of those. Buddy Hall has one of the best strokes in the business, and he firmly grips the cue's butt end with all 5 fingers with a stiff wrist.

There are a lot of tricks and idiosyncrasies that guys use which are unique to them for various purposes, but they serve only to allow for execution in their own way. What works for one guy may not work for another.

I like Grady's enitre instruction on the grip: "Grip the cue in such a way that it is comfortable"...

Doc

This is what I agree with. I was also taught early on to make all the muscles in your body relax. That way you can stroke the cue ball and hit your mark and keep your head and the rest of your body completely stlll. I was tall sometimes I had a problem with my body swaying a tiny bit. An observer could never see it, but I could tell. After learning how to relax all muscles in my legs, hips, arms, etc etc, It helped a lot. Concerning where to grip the cue, that is an individual thing also. I've heard Buddy talk about how he likes it at the back. Shane is at the back and how could you suggest to him a change?? I, however was taught to try to stay in the same stroke pattern and be almost hitting the cue ball with the slightest variation in hit. Like you are almost hitting the cueball with the same force each time, and move you hand back a couple of inches to get more cue ball reaction. If I needed more, I would go on back to the butt cap. If I needed even more, I would go to the very back. If I thought I needed even more, I would go to the slip stroke. It worked well for me also. My teacher compared it to changing clubs at playing golf, which I never played much golf, so I don't know about all that....

 

[jrhendy]

Still learning

Still learning

I have been playing pool for 60 years and one pocket for more than 50, and I am still learning. Things that were natural for many years take a little more thought and effort now.

As an older player I sometimes twist my wrist sideways and my elbow flys out, especially on a shot where I am trying maximum English or a more powerful stroke. Of course this causes me to miss the shot and usually lose the cue ball.

I started experimenting with the "V Grip" taught by Lee Brett and found that it makes me hold the cue looser and that executes the shot better and eliminates the twisting most of the time. It also helps speed up the cue ball when trying to avoid kisses in cross over banks. This little jewel, explained by Freddy in his book, is huge and many long time players pass up hangers because they are afraid of the kiss.

I have to be careful in a long session or when I get tired, because the old habits I have developed creep back in. I may miss an easy shot by a mile and look down and see I have not lined up properly or I have a death grip on the cue.

It does not happen as often when I have the nuts.

 

[usblues]

theres....

theres....

.... a 3-C tournament and Blomdahl when appraising the next shot on the table said,I always miss this one short.And Byrne said well then you should be able to adjust.And Blomdahl said,no,at that moment of truth you play with your flaws.Holding the cue and stroking is the same.You cannot quantify it with logic.Like swinging a bat like Joe Di Maggio.You can swing but not like him,great topic,Jack

 

[Tennessee Joe6]

I have noticed players with massive draw shots seem to be more upright standing --- this may give to a greater swing of the arm. Both the Massey vidoe and Mr3cushion photos illustrate this. In fact Buddy Hall is not down extremely low on the cue.

 

[usblues]

Its not...

Its not...

....how low you stand.Its how low is the cue,cheers,Jack

 

[Rod]

My grip was always loose & wristy & stroke shots took little effort. As an old timer though I still hold the cue loose but may tighten or flinch going forward. That is the killer - changing grip pressure mid stroke. That is the major cause for not hitting the c/b exactly where intended & loss of power. I've found if I increase my grip pressure slightly at address its more consistent throughout the stroke. Not tight by any means, just enough to lose my tendency of re-gripping & tighten up on the cue.

Old muscles & nerves just do not work like they use to. However I see the same in some younger guys as well. You either find a solution or keep on doing the same with limited results.

Rod

 

[backplaying]

What kind of stroke method did Willie Hoppe use? I can say I know CJ and I'm sure he's a better instuctor than I am, but I could never hold the butt tightly as he does. I could also never use just the fingertips on the table the way he bridges. He also uses a little inside english on many shots that I would not want to do. I might use a little outside if anything to keep the ball from skidding, and a little outside does make the pockets accept the ball a little better. I do know at one time he was one of the best money players in the world and it sure worked for him.

 

[petie]

What kind of stroke method did Willie Hoppe use? I can say I know CJ and I'm sure he's a better instuctor than I am, but I could never hold the butt tightly as he does. I could also never use just the fingertips on the table the way he bridges. He also uses a little inside english on many shots that I would not want to do. I might use a little outside if anything to keep the ball from skidding, and a little outside does make the pockets accept the ball a little better. I do know at one time he was one of the best money players in the world and it sure worked for him.

Willie Hoppe used a side stroke due to the fact he started so young and this was the only way he could get the cue level on the table. Also, he was an advocate of holding the cue at it's balance point, holding with a "teacup" grip, using his upper arm and swinging from the shoulder. The book I have read of his also goes into many different bridge lengths for different shots. Also, he was a proponent of the upside down finger bridge used by so many billiard players. I believe this is due to the fact that billiard balls are larger than pool balls and your bridge needs to be a little taller.

 

[mr3cushion]

Proper Grip and position of elbow and upper arm at address of cue ball in 3 cushion

Proper Grip and position of elbow and upper arm at address of cue ball in 3 cushion

Here are a couple video exceprts from my book DVD combo, "The Concise Book of Position Play". Two actual shots showing the grip and elbow/upper arm while making the shot and playing position.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcbs0vfHbJU[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct72iJqr-Vc[/ame]

Enjoy;

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[Tennessee Joe6]

....how low you stand.Its how low is the cue,cheers,Jack

Actually it's where you hit the cue ball and how fast the cue is going at impact. But my point was: Players having a higher stance have a greater arm swing which can increase cue speed.

Sorry, I should have explained in more detail.

 

[beatle]

You said it all right there joe