Comparing the Old Players to the New Players

SJDinPHX said:

I think Lenny's original question is just like the old "would Rocky Marciano, have beaten Ali"...its best settled over a few drinks. You sure as Hell can't wager on it...can you ?

There were a lot of players, who played top level One Pocket from the 50's to the 80's. There were also a lot of different styles, just as there are today.
Offensive styles seem to dominate in modern times, I think RA bears the responsibility for that trend, but he could also move with ANYBODY. Thats why he stayed at the top as long as he did.

The equipment has greatly improved, but the bottom line is still getting eight in your hole, before the other guy does.

To try and say who would have beaten who, when comparing them to the current crop of player's (or vice-versa)...just cannot be done.

Ronnie, Kelly and Breit, and more recently Efren, have left a pretty strong legacy for young guys like Scott and Gabe to try and equal, or exceed....It's a story that is still playing out.

In the end, we are all left with only our opinions, and thats not likely to change anytime soon.

Click to expand...

Skin said:

Artie, the site will time you out after a while. When you hit reply or save and it makes you sign in again, just sign in and what you wrote will be posted. It hasn't been lost.

Click to expand...

KindlyOleUncleDave said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
I cant belive it I just wrote you something very helpfull for your pool game. And it took a half houer and when I hit the submite reply botton it all disaa peared. And I lust looged in a houer ago. And I hit the safe bouton with the arrow. And I cant belive it told me to sign in again after i wrote the whole Replie. I cant belive this happened. I will wright it again to the best off my memory. It will be a while. Becuse weather you belive it or not it takes concentration to wright too.




AB . If you check the 'remember me' box it will keep you 'logged in' on that machine until you log out .... for ever unless you click on 'log out'

Click to expand...

Artie Bodendorfer said:

I cant belive this. It was easyer being the boss I never did any off these things. I just told peple what to do. Now I have to do it. And I never even took care off my bills. BUt thats life. And If I want to get it done I have to do it. Or go watch YV.

Click to expand...

SJDinPHX said:

Artie,


I think you, Freddie and I, ought to put up, like 30k apiece with Steve Booth... last one who ain't dead..wins the pot.

Click to expand...

One Pocket Ghost said:

Don't you think you should get a 10 year spot from them ?....or at least I think they should spot you one major operation - that might even it up....


- Jasper

Click to expand...

One Pocket Ghost said:

Don't you think you should get a 10 year spot from them ?....or at least I think they should spot you one major operation - that might even it up....


- Jasper

Click to expand...

SJDinPHX said:

Artie,

Maybe you should just kick back, and watch "YV" (I'm sure you meant "TV")...it would be a lot less stressful for you !
And please, spare us a two page disertation on your version of "stress"... No one gets through life, without it.

I'm sure we've both had enough of that s--t, to last a lifetime..(or two)....Ask Billy, he's going through, what I went through...15-20 years ago,.... it never ends, and I feel for him, a lot !

PS I think you, Freddie and I, ought to put up, like 30k apiece with Steve Booth... last one who ain't dead..wins the pot.

Click to expand...

One Pocket Ghost said:

Don't you think you should get a 10 year spot from them ?....or at least I think they should spot you one major operation - that might even it up....


- Jasper

Click to expand...

Fast Lenny said:

I am just asking for comparisons really, not just about who would have won in your opinions but also who do the current guys play most like, would you compare say Gabe to Buddy in their style of play and so on. Would Frost be the Jersey Red of today?

Click to expand...

Artie Bodendorfer said:

I never check my diabetes or blood pressure. Because the stress in worse then the desias. And thier is nothig wrong with dieing. BUt it sure aint nothing to brag about. And John looked in way better shape then me. And Dick in his picture looks healther then both off us. And I am sure that Dick is a tough coustmer. At least thats what I see in the picture. And I like it when I win. Because then I can say the mover beat the bankers and shooters. And thier are very few movers left. Do you no any. Does Dick no any I sure didnt see any in galeston. But I no THe goast is realy a mover not a shooter. Even though he showes all the shooters shots. I would rather play safe then eat. I hope thier will be a lot off action in Indiana. And I might make this my last trip. Unless I breack down before. I dont no why but I like having pressure on me when I play. It makes me play harder.

Click to expand...

Fast Lenny said:

I am just asking for comparisons really, not just about who would have won in your opinions but also who do the current guys play most like, would you compare say Gabe to Buddy in their style of play and so on. Would Frost be the Jersey Red of today?

Click to expand...

gulfportdoc said:

Lenny, Frost is the closest player to Ronnie today. He's very aggressive, moves balls around a lot, likes to banter, and doesn't miss too often.

I started to say that Gabe is more like Jersey Red, but yet he doesn't have the killer instinct at the table that Red had. I think Gabe plays as well as did Red. Schmidt probably has more of the affable personality like Red's, but he doesn't yet play quite to Red's level.

Lil John Macias has many of the characteristics of Eddie Kelly. He's not as good a player, but he's very stylish, a good dresser, and is very cocky. And a very nice guy to boot.

Chohan may resemble Richie Florence in certain ways. Dick could probably comment on that.

Johnny Archer sometimes puts me in mind of Babe Cranfield: nervous, fastidious, nit-picky.

Some of the Filipinos remind me of Irving Crane-- very stoic at the table. Guys like Kiamco and Luat come to mind. They don't have his class or his regal nature however. Come to think of it, I don't believe any of the current players have they kind of class exhibited by Crane and some of the old timers. Maybe Schmidt. Kim Davenport has it, but he's past his prime. I may be missing a guy or two.

Doc

Click to expand...

wincardona said:

Here we go again, I think you can make a comparison and make a judgement based off of the comparison. During the mid 60's thru the mid 70's four players ruled in one pocket. Taylor, Bugs, Kelley, and Ronnie. There wasn't more than 9/8 seperation between any two of the four players, that's how close they were. When Reyes was playing his best he was at least 10/8 better than his closest rival.

In football teams are judged by differen't criterias, one criteria is called style points. Style points is how easily you win playing creditable opponents.
In the 60's and 70's the best players had comparable style points when they played one another. When Reyes played his best, his style points were much higher than any of his closest rivals.

Click to expand...

philwelch said:

Damn Bill, I don't think it could have been said any better. That is a complete and very credible explanation.

Click to expand...

Artie Bodendorfer said:

Taylor was already going down hill he was older then those people. Just when I started playing taylor was already old and hes game was going down hill. BUt taylor was a great player. All those players you mentioned. how meny times did they gamble with each other? I no Ronnie and Bugs played 3 times Taylor and Bugs played 0 times one pocket and 2 banks. That leaves Kelly gambling with Bugs And kelly gambling with taylor and Ronnie. And did Ronnie gamble with Taylor or Kelly. And I dont mean 20 dolaers a game. Im talking about thousand dollaer sessions. Kelly didnt gamble much in one pocket. And I didnt see or her off Tayor gambling much in one pocket. I just thought off something How come Taylor is not in the Banks or one pocket Hall Off Fame? Is thier a reason??

Click to expand...

fred bentivegna said:

Think of something else. Taylor is in the bank and one pocket Hall of Fame already. Also Bugs did play Taylor 1pkt in DC., getting staked by Melvin Williams. Taylor was spotting Bugs 8 to 7. Bugs won. The left-wing media should hire you to do their fact finding for them.

the Beard

Click to expand...

Artie Bodendorfer said:

Freddy What ever you say. But you dont want to call Bugs a lier do you. He told me 100% that Taylor would not play him one pocket. And they never played. And THe played Banks 2 Once in Washington. And once in Phily. And they each one once. And I am Sure that Bugs new if he played him or not. And the didnt play banks on the south side off Chicago When Tayor said he was sick. And Bugs said if you are sick then go and see a doctor what are you doing in the pool room. And Taylor got offeneded and left town. And about 4 years ag. I was at the hilton covention center. And I was talking too BUgs and I gave my phone to taylor and BUgs and Tayor talked for 10 minutes. I wish I would hwve recorded that. And Taylor gave me the phone back. And I said to Bugs Taylor said as long as he is around you are only second best. And Taylor herd me And got all nervous and started saying out loud no no no Bugs I didnt say that. But it was Great hering the TWo greatest Bankers in life talking too each other. And the respect they had for each other. The are My two favorite bankers.

Click to expand...

SJDinPHX said:

Style points aside, you are comparing those guys (RA,Taylor, etc.)with their peers...at the time.

Lenny was asking for a comparison of old vs. young. It can be very difficult trying to make those comparisons, when you have 20, 30, or 40 years separating their repective prime's, i.e, Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen, or Gabe Owens vs. Grady...those matches can NEVER be played.

Thats why I was saying, all thats left is conjecture. We all know How good Ronnie, Kelley or Red, played one pocket (if we were around) to say they did not compare with Efren, may be true (few, if any did)

But you have to admit, Bill... those guys often found a way to win, and the talent pool, in Efren's prime, was much depleted from their days.

Also, except for the Jansco run, there was no DCC, or anywhere near the number of quality tournaments for them to compete in.

I keep comparing it to boxing, but boxing, in its hayday, was fairly well structured, with regard to ranking, etc. (There could be some comparisons to pool, regarding the occasional "funny business" too.. )

Thats the point I'm trying to make..."its not always the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog". Like you Bill, the old guy's were never short on heart. And they could all draw their rock...remember ?

Would Marciano have beaten Ali ? Or Sugar Ray Leonard have beaten Jake LaMotta.... All we have is our opinion... We will NEVER really know.

.

Click to expand...