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-   -   Foul or no foul? (http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15494)

chicagomike 06-12-2019 09:08 AM

Foul or no foul?
 
James Leone of Buffalo’s posted a short video on FB which I don’t know how to load to this thread. Danny S. is playing Evan L. and Danny shoots a ball with the CB hopping onto and remaining on top of a rail. Danny apparently said Evan had to play it from on top of the rail. Is the CB played from where it sits or is it a foul with ball in hand from the kitchen? Is the felted part of the top of rail considered playing surface of the table?

I would consider it a foul for leaving and remaining off the playing surface, but I’m unsure that I’m correct. What say you???

cincy_kid 06-12-2019 09:20 AM

That would be a foul to me too Mike (unless previously discussed and agreed among the players to do otherwise).

crabbcatjohn 06-12-2019 10:37 AM

Foul. Ball is no longer on the playing surface

12squared 06-12-2019 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabbcatjohn (Post 259087)
Foul. Ball is no longer on the playing surface

^^^^ this ^^^

jerry matchin 06-12-2019 12:18 PM

Its not on play but I have an observation. Any table measurement is from all the green you can see. So where the feather stripping is is felt and that is included in any table measurement so if its part of a table measurement then why isn't it considered playing surface?

Dennis "Whitey" Young 06-12-2019 12:41 PM

Yes, I agree! If the ball or cb jumps and remains upon the rail, it is a foul, but if it returns to the playing surface it is not a foul, unless it contacts something other than the table itself. Such as: chalk, cue, player, light fixture, and so forth.
We've seen shots whereas the cb is pretty straight on with ob just off the end rail, and there is no real angle to work with, so they stroke down on the cb to make it hop upon the rail and then roll off for shape.
But this brings up something quite interesting, and that is just plain simple chalk. If the ball jumped contacts a piece of chalk it is a foul even though it comes back onto the playing surface.
So this brings me to proper etiquette of pool. It is and has always been proper etiquette to remove your chalk when your inning is over. A decade ago in watching pro's they would remove their chalk, and even if they forgot they would use an opportune time to retrieve it as to courteously not to interfere with the player shooting. Some players are alright with additional chalk on the table and some are not. But now days this etiquette is all but forgot and is considerably abused.

An interesting note; the old original rule of a ball being jumped off the table is that if it hit the light fixture and returned to the table it was not a foul, and that is why now days the rule specifically mentions that contacting the light fixture is a foul. The original rule is how OP was played during it's Jansco Johnston City origins, and I believe it should be played that way today. For a light fixture is different than a chalk, a cue or a player for these are obstructions that the players created, a light fixture is not! Whitey

Hardmix 06-12-2019 05:57 PM

I am fairly certain Evan picked the CB up and told Danny to spot one up.

catkins 06-12-2019 07:04 PM

just a question for people if a cue ball where to bounce on to the rail and past the felt and come back to the playing surface is it a foul as it left the playing surface when it left the felt on the rails ?

crabbcatjohn 06-12-2019 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catkins (Post 259114)
just a question for people if a cue ball where to bounce on to the rail and past the felt and come back to the playing surface is it a foul as it left the playing surface when it left the felt on the rails ?

No foul....

vapros 06-12-2019 07:23 PM

No more a foul, I would think, than taking a jump cue and hitting them fungo shots.

JeaLouS44 06-12-2019 08:01 PM

Foul. Playing surface is measured from the tip of the rails.

lll 06-12-2019 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicagomike (Post 259084)
James Leone of Buffalo’s posted a short video on FB which I don’t know how to load to this thread. Danny S. is playing Evan L. and Danny shoots a ball with the CB hopping onto and remaining on top of a rail. Danny apparently said Evan had to play it from on top of the rail. Is the CB played from where it sits or is it a foul with ball in hand from the kitchen? Is the felted part of the top of rail considered playing surface of the table?

I would consider it a foul for leaving and remaining off the playing surface, but I’m unsure that I’m correct. What say you???

its a foul
here is why imho
if the cue ball is "sitting " on the rail
since the clothed part of the rail is beveled
the cue ball HAS to be touching the non felt part of the rail
which in no way can be considered part of the "playing surface"
also fwiw
the playing surface is where the balls roll
ie with in the nose of the rails
jmho
icbw

beatle 06-12-2019 08:39 PM

the reason the light was never a foul was that in the old pool rooms we had a hanging light not so far off the table and on the break in rotation games the cue ball often jumped up and hit it.
we also played not matter where it went if it came to rest on green then it was playable and no foul.

you make rules such that they are the same for both parties so the rule is neutral, and also so there wont be any argument over what the ruling is.

darmoose 06-12-2019 09:18 PM

We seem to have a variety of opinions as to why this shot should be considered a foul. As beatle says, rules whenever possible, need to leave no doubt, leave no room for subjective reckoning.

3C says if the CB touches anything other than felt, OR if the CB fails to return to the flat felt playing surface, it is a foul. Yet, I am sure I have seen shots, even deliberate shots, played off the top back part of a pocket with the CB that were perfectly legal.

lll thinks that because all felt covered rails are "beveled", the CB can't possibly sit on the top of the cloth rail without touching or having touched some other material. Yet I am sure I have seen in lo' these many years many tables whose rails are NOT beveled, and so could support a ball sitting there without having touched anything other than felt.

I would advocate that a ball that leaves the playing surface and fails to return to the flat felt playing surface on it's own (without interference by the shooter)is a foul. Why do we need say anything further? Is this goring somebody's oxen?
:rolleyes:

youngstownkid 06-13-2019 12:05 AM

Foul or no foul?
 
Danny just said that in jest I’m sure.

Island Drive 06-13-2019 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicagomike (Post 259084)
James Leone of Buffalo’s posted a short video on FB which I don’t know how to load to this thread. Danny S. is playing Evan L. and Danny shoots a ball with the CB hopping onto and remaining on top of a rail. Danny apparently said Evan had to play it from on top of the rail. Is the CB played from where it sits or is it a foul with ball in hand from the kitchen? Is the felted part of the top of rail considered playing surface of the table?

I would consider it a foul for leaving and remaining off the playing surface, but I’m unsure that I’m correct. What say you???

Mike you chose the proper term.

We're not playing golf, where your able to climb a tree and hit from where the ball is lodged.

Only time I've ever seen a ball on the top rail count was from an Old Accustats video of Bloopers, it's a great video.

Ron Rosas banked a ball long rail, it bounced ''all the way'' down the long rail, hit the side pocket lip, jumped over it, kept rolling and then went in the corner pocket.

Bmoretallpaul 06-13-2019 08:08 AM

According to the United States Professional Pool Players Association Rule 3.b, this occurrence would result in a break foul.

Break fouls include the following:

b. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table it is a foul and the non-breaking >player has cue ball in hand behind the head string (from the “kitchen.”)

According to the World Pool Billiard Association, this occurrence is also a foul under rule 6.1 sub rule 8.5

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table

If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, the shot is a foul. See 8.3 Ball Pocketed and 8.5 Driven off the Table.

8.5 Driven off the Table

A ball is considered driven off the table if it comes to rest other than on the playing surface but is not pocketed. A ball is also considered driven off the table if it would have been driven off the table except for striking an object such as a light fixture, piece of chalk or a player which causes it to return to the table. A ball that contacts the top of the rail is not considered to have been driven off the table if it returns to the playing surface or enters a pocket.

gulfportdoc 06-13-2019 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmoretallpaul (Post 259143)
...
8.5 Driven off the Table

A ball is considered driven off the table if it comes to rest other than on the playing surface but is not pocketed. A ball is also considered driven off the table if it would have been driven off the table except for striking an object such as a light fixture, piece of chalk or a player which causes it to return to the table. A ball that contacts the top of the rail is not considered to have been driven off the table if it returns to the playing surface or enters a pocket.

Well, there you have it then. Interesting though that if a ball hits the light fixture, and comes back to rest on the playing surface it is considered a ball off the table; whereas if it climbs up onto the support rail and comes back to the playing area, it's considered "in play". hmmmm...

~Doc

Island Drive 06-13-2019 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gulfportdoc (Post 259152)
Well, there you have it then. Interesting though that if a ball hits the light fixture, and comes back to rest on the playing surface it is considered a ball off the table; whereas if it climbs up onto the support rail and comes back to the playing area, it's considered "in play". hmmmm...

~Doc

I was playing Vickery years ago on a 7 footer, broke the balls, cue ball went vertical into the bar table light. Game over.........fluorescent shards made that call.

beatle 06-13-2019 01:52 PM

who is to determine if it hit the light fixture and it would have gone off the table

and who determines which rules you are playing by and where can you find these rules during the game.

rules are fine as long as everyone knows what they are, can find them to prove it, and are not ambiguous to argue over. just like these posts.

Island Drive 06-13-2019 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatle (Post 259168)
who is to determine if it hit the light fixture and it would have gone off the table

and who determines which rules you are playing by and where can you find these rules during the game.

rules are fine as long as everyone knows what they are, can find them to prove it, and are not ambiguous to argue over. just like these posts.

Both 4' bulbs BROKE..................and thousands of glass pieces were on the table.......that spoke for itself. We could of cared less where the cue ball was.

cincy_kid 06-13-2019 04:58 PM

If the CB goes up on the rail and stays I would think foul but if it pops up and then ends up back on the table, that is a different story, IMO.

It reminds me of the Grady shot he showed in his video on getting position on a ball up table when you have almost a straight in shot down at the opposite end on the short rail.

The idea was to stroke the shot and kind of pop the cue ball so that after it made contact with the OB, the CB would pop up a little bit, hit the edge of the rail and bounce down table.

It's this one:
https://youtu.be/AJWBthmM4DI?t=579

gulfportdoc 06-13-2019 06:11 PM

That's a very useful tape, CK. Grady made some great ones. The one on 1P is fascinating.

vapros 06-13-2019 07:46 PM

Grady kept a notebook with helpful information for his gambling. If I remember correctly, his note for the first shot on that video was that you don't try it when you're on short money! :heh


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