How many balls is good one pocket break worth

[naji]

Hello all one pocket fans,
Trying to give a spot to someone but they insist on getting all the breaks. From your experience would a good one pocket break be valued as say 3 balls, 2 balls, 1 ball? is there a survey done on this. Thanks to all.

 

[usblues]

1.5

1.5

1.5 in my neighborhood.Some say 2.Good luck,B

 

[vapros]

Naji, this is just for your eyes and I'd appreciate it if you don't tell the others. I have a good collection of one-pocket matches on DVDs - all good players and no bums (pool-wise). Several years ago I set out to see whether the break was as good as most of the guys say it is. By the time I had clocked 115 breaks in these matches, I found that the breaker had won 58 times and lost 57 times. I'm not trying to say that this ratio would continue throughout, but my count was legitimate. I think that the break is a greater advantage for most of us than it is for the best players, probably because they are able to deliver better responses to the break than we can.

I don't think I saw a single scratch on the break, but I believe there were at least two or three matches in which the breaker did not win a single game.

I guess this proves nothing, but it's information, and that is always good. And remember - don't tell the other guys. They would be horrified.

 

[lll]

Naji, this is just for your eyes and I'd appreciate it if you don't tell the others. I have a good collection of one-pocket matches on DVDs - all good players and no bums (pool-wise). Several years ago I set out to see whether the break was as good as most of the guys say it is. By the time I had clocked 115 breaks in these matches, I found that the breaker had won 58 times and lost 57 times. I'm not trying to say that this ratio would continue throughout, but my count was legitimate. I think that the break is a greater advantage for most of us than it is for the best players, probably because they are able to deliver better responses to the break than we can.

I don't think I saw a single scratch on the break, but I believe there were at least two or three matches in which the breaker did not win a single game.

I guess this proves nothing, but it's information, and that is always good. And remember - don't tell the other guys. They would be horrified.

i think the "conventional wisdom" is its worth 1-2 balls
ronnie allen felt his ability to get out of the break gave him an advantage offering it as a spot

 

[bstroud]

It depends on the strength of the players playing.

If a very strong player is playing a very weak player the break is worth little or nothing. Its' main strength is in the alignment of the balls in the stack. They are usually oriented toward the breakers pocket.

If you are a strong run out player you can take as many intentional fouls as necessary and they mean little or nothing.

With two equal players it is about 1/2 a ball. No more.

Bill Stroud

 

[sappo]

It depends

It depends

I think the answer depends on how well the player breaks the balls. For the player that has developed a strong consistant break, and by this I mean he moves a good number of balls towards and near his hole and at the same time controls whitey by putting it against the side cushion between the 2nd and 3rd diamond, the break is worth a couple of balls.
On the other hand if the player has a medicore break then it is obviously worth less. Ive played with players that break weakly and the break isnt a big deal. So the answer to your question it "IT DEPENDS " on who is breaking.

 

[lll]

this is from our site section on handicapping

The Break

The break can also figure into handicapping, either by giving one player all of the breaks instead of alternating the break, or by just giving one player the first break in a race when subsequent breaks are still alternated. The break appears to be worth approximately 1-1/2 balls for professional players on tournament equipment, for roughly a 60-40 advantage - a big handicap, especially if the balls are breaking well!

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Hello all one pocket fans,
Trying to give a spot to someone but they insist on getting all the breaks. From your experience would a good one pocket break be valued as say 3 balls, 2 balls, 1 ball? is there a survey done on this. Thanks to all.

naji,

Whatever number you finally decide on for the breaks worth don't lose sight of one thing; you are not just giving him the breaks, you are also giving up your 50% of the breaks. He never has to get out of your break at all.

Dennis

 

[lll]

naji,

Whatever number you finally decide on for the breaks worth don't lose sight of one thing; you are not just giving him the breaks, you are also giving up your 50% of the breaks. He never has to get out of your break at all.

Dennis

dennis you always see things from a different and important angle
good point

 

[NH Steve]

this is from our site section on handicapping

The Break

The break can also figure into handicapping, either by giving one player all of the breaks instead of alternating the break, or by just giving one player the first break in a race when subsequent breaks are still alternated. The break appears to be worth approximately 1-1/2 balls for professional players on tournament equipment, for roughly a 60-40 advantage - a big handicap, especially if the balls are breaking well!

Yes, and I got those numbers by watching a whole bunch of Accustats vid's and keeping records, so they really do reflect the pro results across a spectrum of pro players. Of course, for individual players the numbers might be different. I don't think I have enough sampling for that study.

naji, also keep in mind when giving handicaps -- even the break -- there are so many little incremental variables you can bring into play, you might be able to negotiate something "in between" by varying the spot every other break (even though they are breaking every game), or breaking 2 out of 3 games, etc. so that you are not plunging fully into the deep end with the full break as a spot...

 

[fred bentivegna]

If there is one thing...

If there is one thing...

...I learned in 50 years of hustling, and that is, never spot anyone the break that can run a few balls. Never. Only weak shooting dunces can get the break from me. I stopped giving up the break in any game 30 years ago. Maybe sooner.

The most important thing that you give up with the break is --- momentum. You will seldom have any if you give up the break.
That is, being able to win a bunch of games in a row off of a disheartened oppo.
Picture this scenario, you have just won a miracle game. Your oppo is on the ropes, now consider what might happen if it is now your break. You have the first chance to pour more coal on the fire. How about if you make a ball on the break? Or you luck the 9 in playing 9 ball? Now instead, consider that it is HIS break. You are throwing a life jacket to a drowning man. Giving him an UNOPPOSED opportunity to make a ball on the break, or make a strong break, something that stops your momentum. Or what if he lucks in the 9 ball in 9 ball, or makes one and has a Cosmo layout?
Smart gamblers would rather give up more balls that release the break.

Beard

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

...I learned in 50 years of hustling, and that is, never spot anyone the break that can run a few balls. Never. Only weak shooting dunces can get the break from me. I stopped giving up the break in any game 30 years ago. Maybe sooner.

The most important thing that you give up with the break is --- momentum. You will seldom have any if you give up the break.
That is, being able to win a bunch of games in a row off of a disheartened oppo.
Picture this scenario, you have just won a miracle game. Your oppo is on the ropes, now consider what might happen if it is now your break. You have the first chance to pour more coal on the fire. How about if you make a ball on the break? Or you luck the 9 in playing 9 ball? Now instead, consider that it is HIS break. You are throwing a life jacket to a drowning man. Giving him an UNOPPOSED opportunity to make a ball on the break, or make a strong break, something that stops your momentum. Or what if he lucks in the 9 ball in 9 ball, or makes one and has a Cosmo layout?
Smart gamblers would rather give up more balls that release the break.

Beard

Uncle Mo is seldom talked about but very important in tight games, good point Freddy.

Dennis

 

[Billy Jackets]

It depends on the strength of the players playing.

If a very strong player is playing a very weak player the break is worth little or nothing. Its' main strength is in the alignment of the balls in the stack. They are usually oriented toward the breakers pocket.

If you are a strong run out player you can take as many intentional fouls as necessary and they mean little or nothing.

With two equal players it is about 1/2 a ball. No more.

Bill Stroud

Outstanding sir. especially the intentional fouls. It's amazing how powerful that is and yet how seldom it is necessary.
:heh

 

[bstroud]

As a follow up.

For the 3 or 4 months I have been back playing pool I have not gotten to break in one pocket even once when I match up.

I just don't see it as much of a spot. Sometimes I need to take a few intentional fouls but in 2 or 3 shots I have either moved all the balls away from the breaker's pocket or have them on my side or in my pocket.

I really think today's players under use the intentional foul.

Lassiter won a lot of one pocket matches at Johnson city with just one move. Leave the cue ball in the jaws of your opponent's pocket. Works for me.

Bill Stroud

 

[androd]

How many balls is a good one pocket break worth

Sometimes a good break is worth the whole game.
Sometimes a bad break can cost the game.
This varies with the skill level of the players.
I agree with freddy momentum is strong. Someone who needs the break from me can get 11/8 if I get to break every game. You can certainly get in a groove breaking.
Rod.

 

[wgcp]

Wow,
11-8 and you get the break... I've got to get to houston... LOL

 

[sappo]

As a follow up.

For the 3 or 4 months I have been back playing pool I have not gotten to break in one pocket even once when I match up.

I just don't see it as much of a spot. Sometimes I need to take a few intentional fouls but in 2 or 3 shots I have either moved all the balls away from the breaker's pocket or have them on my side or in my pocket.

I really think today's players under use the intentional foul.

Lassiter won a lot of one pocket matches at Johnson city with just one move. Leave the cue ball in the jaws of your opponent's pocket. Works for me.

Bill Stroud

Bill im confused, if you have to take one or two intentional fouls it seems to me the break was worth one or 2 balls! I also dont understand how are you moving the balls to your pocket if you are taking intentional fouls? Your opponent must be making bad choices after you take those intentionals if you are able to easily move the balls to your hole.
It doesnt seem to me that if you are forced to take a couple of intentionals following the break that a strong player would allow you to just move the balls from his side to your side. Could you do that against Frost, Parica, Owens, Martinez, Joyner or any of the games quality players? If not do you still think the break is not important? Keith

 

[bstroud]

Try putting the cue ball in the jaws of your own pocket and see what shots you have available. In most cases you will be shooting a ball away from your pocket.

One or two or even three balls is really nothing if you are running balls well. I go to 12 or more almost all the time so eight seems easy.

I didn't say the break was not important. I just said it is worth only about 1/2 a ball between equal good players.

Bill Stroud

 

[sappo]

Try putting the cue ball in the jaws of your own pocket and see what shots you have available. In most cases you will be shooting a ball away from your pocket.

One or two or even three balls is really nothing if you are running balls well. I go to 12 or more almost all the time so eight seems easy.

I didn't say the break was not important. I just said it is worth only about 1/2 a ball between equal good players.

Bill Stroud

Thats a great response Bill.

 

[sappo]

Thats a great response Bill.

Just for the record, my response to Bill was sarcastic. Keith