You vs. opponent 13 wwyd

wincardona

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I wish you would take the layout to the table, and stop trying to obfuscate the issue with 3 paragraphs about what Ghost did, or did not imply. Does Ghost have you on retainer?:D

I stated that the 13 ball two-railer will not go if it is hit dead on, that it must be cut. You then said that I must have set it up wrong; and that if I set it up properly, it would go. But if I set it up to where it would go, having been struck at it's center, then the original layout would be altered. Would you like to discuss an alternate variation of this layout?;)

~Doc

Art, I have always been under the impression that the layout on the 13ball bank option was on, why else would I, or for that matter, any one else choose this option not only as the best option of the three but as an option at all, if it wasn't on.:frus The question here is simple, if the angle for the 13ball option is on then there is a debate whether it's the best option, if it's not on then it 'shouldn't of been included with the other options for which option is the best option. If it's not on then of course it's not close to being the best option and probably not an option at all. The strength of the 13ball option is that you can win with it if you pocket the 9ball because of the position the shot carries, if the bank is missed then sticking the cue ball behind the 8ball should create huge problems for your opponent and would clearly make you the favorite to win the game.

My question to you now would be..If the angle for the 13ball option is on would you consider it as an option and how much does it change your perception of the option.


Dr. Bill
 

jtompilot

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I took it to the table and the 3 splits the wicket every time, hmmmmm, I cut the 8 and I hit the point twice and over cut it once, then I two railed the stripe and left it short of the pocket once and it banked short twice. It's the worse shot of the three. Sorry

Have a nice day.

P.S. I didn't do any of that Shiit, But I still want to prop bet it.

Sorry, I forgot everyone banks better than I do:)

I hope we get to play again. Im sure your game has improved and your up to atleast my speed
 

Jeff sparks

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Sorry, I forgot everyone banks better than I do:)

I hope we get to play again. Im sure your game has improved and your up to atleast my speed

9/7 on your break
8/7 on mine
One minute shot clock

Race to three for a couple of hundred.

Best days for me are Thursday or Sunday

Let me know if the game sounds fair to you.

Last time out you won easily, so it's gotta be closer than playing you even.
 

gulfportdoc

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...

My question to you now would be..If the angle for the 13ball option is on would you consider it as an option and how much does it change your perception of the option.


Dr. Bill
Lots of optioning going on...:D But, yes, I would love the shot if it were on.

I must say, though, that there are very few guys who would shoot that shot, when the 8/9 is hanging there. Maybe Jimmy Fusco against Rempe.;)

~Doc
 

wincardona

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Lots of optioning going on...:D But, yes, I would love the shot if it were on.

I must say, though, that there are very few guys who would shoot that shot, when the 8/9 is hanging there. Maybe Jimmy Fusco against Rempe.;)

~Doc

Now that wasn't hard, was it? :D

Dr. Bill
 

straightback

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Even if it is not straight on, using left and playing it pocket speed will make it break long and hook the incoming player utizing the 8.
 

FastEddieF.

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I changed my mind with agreeing to 2 rail13 ball, I now agree with Doc. Thinking I would start to practice next week I set the shot up as close as possible and found out that Doc is 100% right. Cutting the 8 ball into the 9ball with slight left on cue ball is the right shot because hitting the 2 railer the speed is the hard part of the shot but the cut on the 8 ball is much easier. I'm a weak shot maker but I'll willing to bet I'll make the cut shot more times than John Brumback will make the 2 railer on the 13 ball. Just my opinion. I see there might be action on this shot.I'm all in.
 

baby huey

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The straight back on the three ball allows you a higher % to get to the hill first. Playing it with pocket speed is a pretty nice shot and the way the other two balls are positioned on your side will guarantee you extra innings to win the game. For a high caliber player I think this is the correct shot. For a lessor caliber player the two rail bank might be the better shot. The cut shot on the eight ball in my opinion is low % for any player and you have to hit it with a little too much cue ball speed to hold the cut line to the nine ball. Just floating it up there is not the best shot to take advantage of your tactical position in the game.
 

Frank Almanza

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I changed my mind with agreeing to 2 rail13 ball, I now agree with Doc. Thinking I would start to practice next week I set the shot up as close as possible and found out that Doc is 100% right. Cutting the 8 ball into the 9ball with slight left on cue ball is the right shot because hitting the 2 railer the speed is the hard part of the shot but the cut on the 8 ball is much easier. I'm a weak shot maker but I'll willing to bet I'll make the cut shot more times than John Brumback will make the 2 railer on the 13 ball. Just my opinion. I see there might be action on this shot.I'm all in.

I first suggested the cut on the eight on post 17 just as describes using a bit of left (outside) English. That English will help the cut, slow the cue ball down, plus will put the cue ball in good position incase the eight ball goes over to the short rail.
 

jrhendy

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I changed my mind with agreeing to 2 rail13 ball, I now agree with Doc. Thinking I would start to practice next week I set the shot up as close as possible and found out that Doc is 100% right. Cutting the 8 ball into the 9ball with slight left on cue ball is the right shot because hitting the 2 railer the speed is the hard part of the shot but the cut on the 8 ball is much easier. I'm a weak shot maker but I'll willing to bet I'll make the cut shot more times than John Brumback will make the 2 railer on the 13 ball. Just my opinion. I see there might be action on this shot.I'm all in.

Sooner or later you will have to make a bank to win the game. I would rather make it first, shooting the two railer. Even if I miss, IMO I am the favorite to win the game because of the table layout.

I am shooting the two railer to stick and hide the balls by my hole. If I make the ball in the hole I win the game in this inning most of the time.
 

wincardona

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Sooner or later you will have to make a bank to win the game. I would rather make it first, shooting the two railer. Even if I miss, IMO I am the favorite to win the game because of the table layout.

I am shooting the two railer to stick and hide the balls by my hole. If I make the ball in the hole I win the game in this inning most of the time.

The option with the 13ball are the kind of moves that are tongue licking good. To make the move even better y here is a ball hanging in your pocket..double yum. What more can one ask for..shoot and stick and make them sick.

To me it's clearly an option that's hard to pass up.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Well here I've been, sitting in the wings watching and reading all the banter over a situation which to me seems pretty straightforward. I believe the reason there is so much controversy over what's the right shot is because the right shot is dependent on who's shooting, and what their average capabilities are.

I believe it was Rob, and maybe a few others who like cutting the eight ball. I like that shot too. With a touch of left english, and good speed control to go across the table twice for shape on the thirteen, it is quite possible to easily run the three balls needed to win the game. Sounds good to me. But what if you don't have Rob's shot making ability? Now what's the best shot? Bank the three?

If you happen to be left handed and you don't happen to be seven feet tall, you will be using the rake. I'm not left handed but even if I were, not with my cash when there are other options available. As a right handed player, at the very minimum, you will be stretched out over the side of the table. Try it. I did, and I found I was able to do it, but it wasn't very comfortable.

So now, let's assume you have played the bank and made the nine ball. What now? Granted, you will, in all likelihood, have an easy shot on the three, but what are you going to play for next? Depending on the angle you are left with, the best you may have is a three rail bank. If you are lucky, you may have a chance to swing the cue ball around the table to come between the thirteen and eight. This isn't easy for any one, but if you're that good than I wonder why not cut the eight to begin with.

So what happens if you miss the nine with your three ball bank? Your opponent now has an easy way to clear the nine. It really won't matter very much whether he uses the three to do it. There will be no way for you to protect the three anyway. He will clear that ball on his next inning. Opportunity lost.

Now for the two rail bank on the thirteen. This shot is the soundest choice for any player who lacks Rob's shot making skills. I need not go into the reasons for this. Others, like Dr. Bill have clearly pointed out the pluses and minuses of this shot. Even if the shot is not laying perfectly, as long as it is in a position where the cue ball can be held along the side rail hiding the nine, it is a very good option. Don't forget, even if your foe has a way to play the eight into the nine and clear the eight without surrendering a shot on the thirteen, he still may give up a good bank on the eight or a two rail bank on the three. It will be difficult to protect against both options.

The speed of the two rail shot is the critical factor in my opinion. Both the nine and thirteen must be hidden behind the eight. If the speed of this shot leaves the thirteen between the eight and nine balls, you will have placed your opponent in a very awkward position. This two rail shot offers the mover a wonderful way to win this game in a strategic way. It may not be as straightforward as the cut on the eight but not all of us have the percentages working for us with that shot.

Tom
 

3RAILKICK

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I am likely the weakest skill level player on the site, and as such, pretty qualified to give my C player report:

I set this WWYD up before my once a week playing outing, league 9ball:

Banking 3ball: Little hard to reach, assumed it was almost straight in, as one view suggests. Rolled it with just top to get 'as good or better cb on 13', and leave 3 near the corner:

Barely missed the deep 9ball three times, hitting about a diamond above the corner on the long rail...table roll , or me, idk, but consistent. 3 ball stayed within one square diamond next to the cortner. CB didn't make it back to original position area.


Cutting 8 ball:

First time, using left center, I caught the tit. 2nd and third time..overcut and missed the 9, and was short with cb trying to get back to the long rail for the 13.


Double bank 13:

It layed real good for me as depicted. All 5 attempts..the speed was good. Each time the 8 snookered the 13 and 9.

First try, with center stop, 13 came up short, rolled direct to long rail just above 9ball.

The others...1/2 tip left, center stun..rolled to bottom rail, missed 9 and settled very near long rail above the 9. One leaked about 3/4 a diamond off the 4th long rail, but was still snookered.




The reason I liked the two railer in the first place is that as a 9ball player, I like it as a two way shot(especially with the 'next ball blocker'), and I practice that shot...so the speed is familiar. And to me...it did lay perfect.

Plus it is a close straight on shot. The cut at cb back and forth speed where 8 ends up likely headed to opponent side coming off deep 9ball...not my first choice.

The bank, I have to hit harder, stretched out, to keep it from drifting, and return cb to near where it started, and deal with the less predictable 3 ball after it pockets or misses the 9. I'm apt to hit it short , run it into the 8 and leave both 8 and 3 as gimmees to opponent.


The 13 double bank is the right shot for me with my limitations, and the potential defensive advantages, at least in my inexperieced opinion.

..my C player take

..back on the porch

..and welcome back Tom Wirth/there is much to enjoy, appreciate and learn from your book...thank you for writing it.
 
Last edited:

Miller

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Well here I've been, sitting in the wings watching and reading all the banter over a situation which to me seems pretty straightforward. I believe the reason there is so much controversy over what's the right shot is because the right shot is dependent on who's shooting, and what their average capabilities are.

I believe it was Rob, and maybe a few others who like cutting the eight ball. I like that shot too. With a touch of left english, and good speed control to go across the table twice for shape on the thirteen, it is quite possible to easily run the three balls needed to win the game. Sounds good to me. But what if you don't have Rob's shot making ability? Now what's the best shot? Bank the three?

If you happen to be left handed and you don't happen to be seven feet tall, you will be using the rake. I'm not left handed but even if I were, not with my cash when there are other options available. As a right handed player, at the very minimum, you will be stretched out over the side of the table. Try it. I did, and I found I was able to do it, but it wasn't very comfortable.

So now, let's assume you have played the bank and made the nine ball. What now? Granted, you will, in all likelihood, have an easy shot on the three, but what are you going to play for next? Depending on the angle you are left with, the best you may have is a three rail bank. If you are lucky, you may have a chance to swing the cue ball around the table to come between the thirteen and eight. This isn't easy for any one, but if you're that good than I wonder why not cut the eight to begin with.

So what happens if you miss the nine with your three ball bank? Your opponent now has an easy way to clear the nine. It really won't matter very much whether he uses the three to do it. There will be no way for you to protect the three anyway. He will clear that ball on his next inning. Opportunity lost.

Now for the two rail bank on the thirteen. This shot is the soundest choice for any player who lacks Rob's shot making skills. I need not go into the reasons for this. Others, like Dr. Bill have clearly pointed out the pluses and minuses of this shot. Even if the shot is not laying perfectly, as long as it is in a position where the cue ball can be held along the side rail hiding the nine, it is a very good option. Don't forget, even if your foe has a way to play the eight into the nine and clear the eight without surrendering a shot on the thirteen, he still may give up a good bank on the eight or a two rail bank on the three. It will be difficult to protect against both options.

The speed of the two rail shot is the critical factor in my opinion. Both the nine and thirteen must be hidden behind the eight. If the speed of this shot leaves the thirteen between the eight and nine balls, you will have placed your opponent in a very awkward position. This two rail shot offers the mover a wonderful way to win this game in a strategic way. It may not be as straightforward as the cut on the eight but not all of us have the percentages working for us with that shot.

Tom


good to "see" you tom. thanks for the analysis.
 

LSJohn

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I am likely the weakest skill level player on the site, and as such, pretty qualified to give my C player report:

I set this WWYD up before my once a week playing outing, league 9ball:

Banking 3ball: Little hard to reach, assumed it was almost straight in, as one view suggests. Rolled it with just top to get 'as good or better cb on 13', and leave 3 near the corner:

Barely missed the deep 9ball three times, hitting about a diamond above the corner on the long rail...table roll , or me, idk, but consistent. 3 ball stayed within one square diamond next to the cortner. CB didn't make it back to original position area.


Cutting 8 ball:

First time, using left center, I caught the tit. 2nd and third time..overcut and missed the 9, and was short with cb trying to get back to the long rail for the 13.


Double bank 13:

It layed real good for me as depicted. All 5 attempts..the speed was good. Each time the 8 snookered the 13 and 9.

First try, with center stop, 13 came up short, rolled direct to long rail just above 9ball.

The others...1/2 tip left, center stun..rolled to bottom rail, missed 9 and settled very near long rail above the 9. One leaked about 3/4 a diamond off the 4th long rail, but was still snookered.




The reason I liked the two railer in the first place is that as a 9ball player, I like it as a two way shot(especially with the 'next ball blocker'), and I practice that shot...so the speed is familiar. And to me...it did lay perfect.

Plus it is a close straight on shot. The cut at cb back and forth speed where 8 ends up likely headed to opponent side coming off deep 9ball...not my first choice.

The bank, I have to hit harder, stretched out, to keep it from drifting, and return cb to near where it started, and deal with the less predictable 3 ball after it pockets or misses the 9. I'm apt to hit it short , run it into the 8 and leave both 8 and 13 as gimmees to opponent.


The 13 double bank is the right shot for me with my limitations, and the potential defensive advantages, at least in my inexperieced opinion.

..my C player take

..back on the porch

..and welcome back Tom Wirth/there is much to enjoy, appreciate and learn from your book...thank you for writing it.

Dude.

That is one fine post.

Thanks.
 

lll

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Mar 19, 2007
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vero beach fl
I am likely the weakest skill level player on the site, and as such, pretty qualified to give my C player report:

I set this WWYD up before my once a week playing outing, league 9ball:

Banking 3ball: Little hard to reach, assumed it was almost straight in, as one view suggests. Rolled it with just top to get 'as good or better cb on 13', and leave 3 near the corner:

Barely missed the deep 9ball three times, hitting about a diamond above the corner on the long rail...table roll , or me, idk, but consistent. 3 ball stayed within one square diamond next to the cortner. CB didn't make it back to original position area.


Cutting 8 ball:

First time, using left center, I caught the tit. 2nd and third time..overcut and missed the 9, and was short with cb trying to get back to the long rail for the 13.


Double bank 13:

It layed real good for me as depicted. All 5 attempts..the speed was good. Each time the 8 snookered the 13 and 9.

First try, with center stop, 13 came up short, rolled direct to long rail just above 9ball.

The others...1/2 tip left, center stun..rolled to bottom rail, missed 9 and settled very near long rail above the 9. One leaked about 3/4 a diamond off the 4th long rail, but was still snookered.




The reason I liked the two railer in the first place is that as a 9ball player, I like it as a two way shot(especially with the 'next ball blocker'), and I practice that shot...so the speed is familiar. And to me...it did lay perfect.

Plus it is a close straight on shot. The cut at cb back and forth speed where 8 ends up likely headed to opponent side coming off deep 9ball...not my first choice.

The bank, I have to hit harder, stretched out, to keep it from drifting, and return cb to near where it started, and deal with the less predictable 3 ball after it pockets or misses the 9. I'm apt to hit it short , run it into the 8 and leave both 8 and 13 as gimmees to opponent.


The 13 double bank is the right shot for me with my limitations, and the potential defensive advantages, at least in my inexperieced opinion.

..my C player take

..back on the porch

..and welcome back Tom Wirth/there is much to enjoy, appreciate and learn from your book...thank you for writing it.

your post is a reality check for the members and lurkers
thanks alot for posting...:)
the cut on the 8 is the nuts for those who feel they are a high percent to hit the 9 and make it
alittle outside english gives you natural shape to the 13 next
going back and forth should be natural for a 9 ball player or a 1p payer
the 2 railer since it has the built in safety of hiding behind the 8
is the ultimate SQUEEZE play
so are you a shooter or a grinder????
the 3 ball bank gets you a ball but getting shape on the 8 / 13 will never be better than you have right now
so not the best option
jmho
icbw
 

jtompilot

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When I played the 8 and made the 9, I used a softer stroke and never got shape on the 13. I used the 8 to get shape on the 13. I tended to over cut the 8 so my game winning percentage would be higher with the double bank on the 13. So I guess I'm in the "C" catergory and also need 11/7 from Rob:D
 

Frank Almanza

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your post is a reality check for the members and lurkers
thanks alot for posting...:)
the cut on the 8 is the nuts for those who feel they are a high percent to hit the 9 and make it
alittle outside english gives you natural shape to the 13 next
going back and forth should be natural for a 9 ball player or a 1p payer
the 2 railer since it has the built in safety of hiding behind the 8
is the ultimate SQUEEZE play
so are you a shooter or a grinder????
the 3 ball bank gets you a ball but getting shape on the 8 / 13 will never be better than you have right now
so not the best option
jmho
icbw

Bill, (3 rail kick) I agree with everything you say here except for the part of cutting the eight ball and going across the table and back for the 13 ball.

I would prefer parking the cue ball on the other side of the table to get a good shot on the eight ball. I shot this shot quite a few times and found my percentage to make the nine very high. After that, there were many ways to get back to the 13 ball. At worse a bank on the three ball. If I had to bank a ball I would want it to be after I got the seven balls.

Playing the cut and going back across for shape on the 13 ball is too much speed for the eight ball to hang around your pocket. For that reason I would play it just to softly pocket the nine. If I miss the nine ball I would want two balls hanging around my pocket.
 

onepockethacker

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When I played the 8 and made the 9, I used a softer stroke and never got shape on the 13. I used the 8 to get shape on the 13. I tended to over cut the 8 so my game winning percentage would be higher with the double bank on the 13. So I guess I'm in the "C" catergory and also need 11/7 from Rob:D

The more you bet the more you get:D

have a nice day:)
 
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