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vapros

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May 24, 2004
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baton rouge, la
See Larry's post #10 about pressing one ball into the cushion to see if the other one falls. I have seen this done on an old video that I don't have any longer. Thinking Grady v Billy I - how about it, Dr. Bill? ICBW
 

Tom Wirth

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Jul 5, 2004
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Delray Beach, Florida
I've run into this situation more than once over the years. The way I learned to pocket the ball without scratching was to elevate the cue stick almost vertical, use left hand english aiming towards the left edge of the object ball. The real trick to the shot is to make an "air bridge". With the bridge hand free, your hand can now twist outward during the stroke. Do not brace your bridge hand against your body. It must be free and relaxed. The twisting action and the spin sends the object ball in the hole and the cue ball runs outwards. Because you're cueing towards the edge of the cue ball and aiming towards the edge of the object ball there is no foul.

Try it, I think you will like it. I suppose there are some of you who will suggest the shot I have describe is a foul but if played properly the shot falls well within the rules of a clean masse shot.

Cheers,

Tom
 

Billy Jackets

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I saw Mark Tad doing that piquet shot with just a shaft once. Never seen it made on a pool table with a full cue, but it's probably possible. The ball was going out about 3 or 4 inches, if I remember correctly and then coming back. He was doing it effortlessly while talking to someone. My memory sucks but I don't remember him being at 90degrees or anything , more like 75, doesn't seem logical but thats what I remember. He was hitting it so soft , I doubt the cueball would have went much more than the length of the table, if it even made it, if he hit it on a level plane.
 

darmoose

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Baltimore, MD
Just trying to understand the discussion here regarding potential fouls when shooting a shot in this scenario. The two balls are frozen to each other...if you shoot with a continuous stroke, and probably jacked up, how can you foul? On the other hand, with both balls frozen to a rail, unless you drive one or both to another rail, or pocket the OB, how can you avoid a foul? ..... :unsure:
 

lll

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vero beach fl
Just trying to understand the discussion here regarding potential fouls when shooting a shot in this scenario. The two balls are frozen to each other...if you shoot with a continuous stroke, and probably jacked up, how can you foul? On the other hand, with both balls frozen to a rail, unless you drive one or both to another rail, or pocket the OB, how can you avoid a foul? ..... :unsure:
Darrell
i think the issue is not that they are frozen but how long the cue tip stays on the cue ball while the object ball is on the rail
ie a push or double hit shot
jmho
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Klamath Falls, Or.
bob jewett followed up with this
In my view the "vertical projection" idea in the CSI/BCAPL rules quoted above is unclear and broken. I think a better rule is the way it is written in the WPA rules:

A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.

If two balls are locked, and it is not obvious that they are keeping each other from dropping, test by pressing one of the balls back into the facing of the pocket. If the other ball moves towards or into the pocket, it is pocketed. Then release the pressed ball and see if it drops. Of course some care is required.

The WPA rule also takes care of full pockets.
I tried this, and wow it is hard to put pressure on a ball into the facing without creating a slight rotation, of which of course that rolled the other ball into the pocket. And then I realized I can not push the cue ball into the facing, for it is not allowed to disturb the cue ball.
Once again, I found myself laughing at myself, this is NUTS! Now this sentence rings so true; " of course some care is required". LOL!!!

I thought mr3c had something. I'll just stick my stick through the bottom of my web pocket and stroke upwards on the cue ball and get it airborne and let it come down on the 13 ball and valla I made it. But the stick is to long. So I unscrew my stick, but then my opponent would state that is a concession of game. Now I lost the game! Damn I'am laughing!

Yes, Cincy Kid and Darrell, both balls are froze to each other and to each are froze to a rail. So if you do not pocket the ball then a rail has to be contacted! Cincy, recognized this right off.
Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ffVpwmmSsacavb4A hit the box to enlarge. One thing about doing this softly, it will not follow the ball in. Since the cue ball is deeper into the pocket then that puts it behind the object ball, and I believe this has the effect on every which I tried to make it, I could not, plus everything is jammed up! Compressing the facing keeps from contacting the ob on the way out, is the key!

I am far from a masse' artist. But in viewing the many above the table 3c masse' shots the mr3c has posted, I find that most masse's are on approx. 75 degree angle. I also noticed that upon contact the cue tip is brought back towards the body or away from the cue ball. Otherwise you just push the cue ball down the table. Anyone that feels comfortable to weigh in on this, please do so. for like I say I am no masse' artist.

I want to thank all of the participants. You guys really have made this thread turn out way beyond my wildest expectations.

Oh, yes there is no rule that a player cannot change out their cue stick. The only rule is that a short jump cue cannot be used. Although masse' cues are shorter and they are also used to do jump masse's so that is a tricky situation. I used another heavier cue to do the shot in the video, but it is full length.
I was listening to Jay Helfert commentate, and he stated, "whatever happened to have cue weight and length regulations". How true! I am old school, and back in the day we walk in with one cue, and that cue did everything. I kind of wish OP had that rule.

thanks guys, and a special thanks to Larry for posting this thread for me.
Whitey
 
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baby huey

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In todays rules if the balls are frozen then push through it and score the object ball. I don't like it but them are the new rules.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Klamath Falls, Or.
I saw Mark Tad doing that piquet shot with just a shaft once. Never seen it made on a pool table with a full cue, but it's probably possible. The ball was going out about 3 or 4 inches, if I remember correctly and then coming back. He was doing it effortlessly while talking to someone. My memory sucks but I don't remember him being at 90degrees or anything , more like 75, doesn't seem logical but thats what I remember. He was hitting it so soft , I doubt the cueball would have went much more than the length of the table, if it even made it, if he hit it on a level plane.
Thanks Billy for the compliment. I was wondering if I hit as you remember Mark Tad hitting it.
Whitey
 

hankh

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Sep 18, 2017
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Arrey, N.M.
Whitey. Howdy;

Got a good chuckle watchin' you shoot the shot. 5 Stars!!


hank
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Klamath Falls, Or.
Whitey. Howdy;

Got a good chuckle watchin' you shoot the shot. 5 Stars!!


hank
Thanks Hank for the 5 stars, and glad you got a chuckle, for sometimes I too get a good chuckle from these posts, and it makes a good start for the day!

After watching the world championship between Rudolph and Greenleaf, and Rudolph does that little baby masse' to pocket the ball, and Ronnie Allen on the highlight reel from Johnston City doing the same. I decided to practice it first thing everyday, it appears it paid off!
But, what is nice in doing this baby masse' is that the cb is hanging over the edge of the pocket and thus when the cue goes through it hits nothing but air instead of tearing the cloth. I have a few tears in it already from masse's, lol!

That's why I cannot change the cloth, to much to do and to much to learn, and I'd sure not like tearing a new cloth.
Whitey
 
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Billy Jackets

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Thanks Billy for the compliment. I was wondering if I hit as you remember Mark Tad hitting it.
Whitey
You were more elevated. He was at 75 degrees or so and was only hitting the ball hard enough to go possibly 8 feet . AS I said ,he was only using a shaft , I don't know the dynamics of a full cue, The cueball went out about double yours and zipped back. But would not have had enough pace to scratch, after hitting the full ball, just like you did not. You used the same stroke Mosconi did on his trick to make a ball off the bottom rail go out and up and make a ball on the side rail in the same pocket. I wish I could go mess with it again ,I remember trying years ago and not having much success. I wonder if it is like when we all started to learn to draw the cueball, I hit the balls so hard they would fly all over the pool room. When you finally get it , it's just a soft stroke , well delivered.
Thanks Hank for the 5 stars, and glad you got a chuckle, for sometimes I too get a good chuckle from these posts, and it makes a good start for the day!

After watching the world championship between Rudolph and Greenleaf, and Rudolph does that little baby masse' to pocket the ball, and Ronnie Allen on the highlight reel from Johnston City doing the same. I decided to practice it first thing everyday, it appears it paid off!
But, what is nice in doing this baby masse' is that the cb is hanging over the edge of the pocket and thus when the cue goes through it hits nothing but air instead of tearing the cloth. I have a few tears in it already from masse's, lol!

That's why I cannot change the cloth, to much to do and to much to learn, and I'd sure not like tearing a new cloth.
Whitey
I know it is not the same but you could put down an old hunk of cloth while learning the shot , that saves some real wear and tear on it over time.
 
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