WWYD - CONWAY, JR. vs DAULTON

Miller

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Here is Benny Conway, Jr. vs Shannon Daulton from 2012 Tunica.

This is the second rack, Daulton won the first.

Ball count is 1-0 in favor of Daulton.

Conway, Jr.’s shot (or as Doc calls him “Little Goose” :)).

WWYD?

1.jpg
 

treeMan

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I like kicking into the stack here and loosening balls on my side. Looks like by hitting the seven the pink strip will get good action towards my hole and there is a good chance to stick the cue ball in the stack.

tree
 

Miller

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I like kicking into the stack here and loosening balls on my side. Looks like by hitting the seven the pink strip will get good action towards my hole and there is a good chance to stick the cue ball in the stack.

tree

i think you're firing at the wrong hole there, tree...
:D:eek::D
 

NH Steve

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Little Goose seems to be a pretty aggressive player. It looks to me like there might a narrow lane to bank the pink 4 straight back between the 8 and 2 and play shape on the two open balls. That's probably what he played. I might bank it a little softer and stop the cue ball right there -- and hope to leave the 4 as a threat near my pocket.
 

treeMan

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I sure am:confused:! It's Shannon's fault for leaving Conway on the wrong side of the stack :).

I'd bank what looks like the 4 straight back and follow up for position on the 1 or 13.
 

onepockethacker

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14 ball into the 10ball, 10 ball into the 7 ball, 7 ball billiard off the 5 ball into your hole and run out.. :) That game is over whats next? :)
 

lll

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my first look was hit the stack send a committee to my side and go from there
hacker where are you playing the cue ball
do you got to the side rail
or
hit it with low right to get to the end rail??
 
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androd

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my first look was hit the stack send a committee to my side and got from there
hacker where are you playing the cue ball
do you got to the side rail
or
hit it with low right to get to the end rail??

Yeah the 7 ball ain't going, but drawing over here looks like the shot.
Rod.

 

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onepockethacker

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my thoughts too rod
thanks for diagramming it:)

Just so you know Larry his diagram is not accurate of the ball action at all.. :sorry depending where you hit the 14 ball the 12 ball may not move at all.. The key is hitting the 14 ball so it barely moves the 12 ball which in turn moves the 5 ball slightly lower so when the 7 ball caroms off it is dead in the pocket.. You have to be able use your imagination and you can manipulate balls into being dead that some players wont see. Ervolino showed me these kinda shots 14 years ago.
P.S. worst case scenario the 7 ball will hit inside the first diamond not near the 2nd diamond and if you dont move the 12 ball the 5 ball will be coming toward your opponents side of the table
 
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wincardona

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I would hit the 14ball with a soft draw and try to stick on the 12ball. A soft speed is all you need with the shot, plus it gives you better control of the cue ball. If you can open the balls and stick on the 12ball you've done your job. Quite often when shooting shots like this one you leave a return bank, that's why I like sticking on the 12ball.

Dr. Bill
 

lll

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Just so you know Larry his diagram is not accurate of the ball action at all.. :sorry depending where you hit the 14 ball the 12 ball may not move at all.. The key is hitting the 14 ball so it barely moves the 12 ball which in turn moves the 5 ball slightly lower so when the 7 ball caroms off it is dead in the pocket.. You have to be able use your imagination and you can manipulate balls into being dead that some players wont see. Ervolino showed me these kinda shots 14 years ago.
P.S. worst case scenario the 7 ball will hit inside the first diamond not near the 2nd diamond and if you dont move the 12 ball the 5 ball will be coming toward your opponents side of the table

is this how you see it??
hh1.jpg
 

lll

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robert
the way i understand how the clusters work
first lets assume the 14/12/10 /7/5 are all frozen
by hitting the 14 in a way to make the 5 barely move
more force is going into the 10/7 then the 12/5 which i would think would make the 7 move first and carom off the 5 sooner NOT later meaning a higher tangent line
hard to tell if thetangent line is quite as high as rods pic
but to make it i assume you would need to lower the tangent line
id have to be at the table to be sure
NOW if there was a gap among the 14/10/7
then the 5 could move alittle before the 7 and lower the tangent line closer to the line to the pocket

if there is a gap and the 5 moves first then it will be carromed more towards your opponents side
if not it would go more like rods pic



thats how i understand it

is that correct??
 
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NH Steve

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I would hit the 14ball with a soft draw and try to stick on the 12ball. A soft speed is all you need with the shot, plus it gives you better control of the cue ball. If you can open the balls and stick on the 12ball you've done your job. Quite often when shooting shots like this one you leave a return bank, that's why I like sticking on the 12ball.

Dr. Bill
Yours is the way I would have played this too, if I could see enough of the 14 so as not to disturb the 12. But that's not knowing the trick of nicking the 12 a smidge on the way in to redirect the 7 towards the pocket.

I have to give Rob credit (and Ervolino) for the idea of steering the 7 to your pocket. It makes sense and the principle reminds me of what makes for a good One Pocket break -- you have to get a light clip on the head ball in order to get good action from the main force on the second ball. Kudos
 

SJDinPHX

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robert
the way i understand how the clusters work
first lets assume the 14/12/10 /7/5 are all frozen..<--Larry, I'm sure you know the real meaning of 'ASSUME' ?
by hitting the 14 in a way to make the 5 barely move
more force is going into the 10/7 then the 12/5 which i would think would make the 7 move first and carom off the 5 sooner NOT later meaning a higher tangent line
hard to tell if thetangent line is quite as high as rods pic
but to make it you would need to lower the tangent line
id have to be at the table to be sure <--Yes you would...way to many "WHAT IFS" for me !
NOW if there was a gap among the 14/10/7
then the 5 could move alittle before the 7 and lower the tangent line closer to the line to the pocket

if there is a gap and the 5 moves first then it will be carromed more towards your opponents side
if not it would go more like rods pic



thats how i understand it

is that correct??

Larry,

No one can possibly determine EXACTLY where those balls are going..Not the Hacker, Dr. Bill, Rod, nor anyone else !...If you were at the table, looking down on them, you could make an educated guess...Dealing with a 3/4 view..This is NOT possible... That is why IMO, the WWYD selections, are much better suited, to balls that are NOT clustered..Like maybe uptable all by themselves, or a choice of a bank, versus a safety, etc..The opportunity to learn shot selection, will be much more beneficial to someone trying to learn the game.

Shots like this, are of little benefit to anyone..! This is why I seldom engage in WWYD's like this..EVERYBODY sees them different, and they could ALL be wrong...You could even be AT THE TABLE, and guess wrong, as to how all the little tickie's and bumps may effect any given shot...Stick to BASIC WWYD's, that teach you sensible offensive, or defensive manuevers, NOT shots where its all guesswork..Everyone will learn more...Save shots like this, for when you confront them, and learn from YOUR OWN mistakes..When in doubt...Defense, will usually serve you better than an offensive, blind, 'whack at the balls'..I love offense too, but I don't like leaving my oppo, a free shot to win the game, if I GUESS wrong ! ..:cool:

PS..All that being said, I like Rod's shot in this spot ! :)
 
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wincardona

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Just so you know Larry his diagram is not accurate of the ball action at all.. :sorry depending where you hit the 14 ball the 12 ball may not move at all.. The key is hitting the 14 ball so it barely moves the 12 ball which in turn moves the 5 ball slightly lower so when the 7 ball caroms off it is dead in the pocket.. You have to be able use your imagination and you can manipulate balls into being dead that some players wont see. Ervolino showed me these kinda shots 14 years ago.
P.S. worst case scenario the 7 ball will hit inside the first diamond not near the 2nd diamond and if you dont move the 12 ball the 5 ball will be coming toward your opponents side of the table
The shot will play out pretty close to the way you described it should.the 12ball shouldn't move much at all, the 5ball will move slightly to it's right but mostly toward the bottom rail.Imo this shot should be hit with 1/2 a tip below center .....but not hard....hard enough to move the 7ball to the rail and a foot off.
If this shot is hit accurately the cue ball will move at most about 3" and stay behind the 12ball.

Imo it's imperative to stick the cue ball as close to the 12ball as possible, using it to block the return bank/banks that may show. You can do this by striking the cue ball a hair below center (do not draw the ball) so it plays ..dead.. After contact.

Set up positions like this one and experiment with them, using different speeds and cue ball hits, which will give you a better perspective on how balls interact with themselves. Also play particularly close attention to the cue ball and how it reacts to different hits.

Johnny Ervolino was the best I ever saw playing balls from the rack, he truly was the master when it came to recognizing dead balls in the rack.

Dr. Bill
 

lll

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Larry,

No one can possibly determine EXACTLY where those balls are going..Not the Hacker, Dr. Bill, Rod, nor anyone else !...If you were at the table, looking down on them, you could make an educated guess...Dealing with a 3/4 view..This is NOT possible... That is why IMO, the WWYD selections, are much better suited, to balls that are NOT clustered..Like maybe uptable all by themselves, or a choice of a bank, versus a safety, etc..The opportunity to learn shot selection, will be much more beneficial to someone trying to learn the game.

Shots like this, are of little benefit to anyone..! This is why I seldom engage in WWYD's like this..EVERYBODY sees them different, and they could ALL be wrong...You could even be AT THE TABLE, and guess wrong, as to how all the little tickie's and bumps may effect any given shot...stick to BASIC WWYD's, that teach you sensible offensive, or defensive manuevers, NOT shots where its all guesswork..Everyone will learn more...Save shots like this, for when you confront them, and learn from YOUR OWN mistakes..When in doubt...Defense, will usually serve you better than an offensive, blind, 'whack at the balls'..I love offense too, but I don't like leaving my oppo, a free shot to win the game, if I GUESS wrong ! ..:cool:

dick
thanks for the reply:)
 

lll

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Yours is the way I would have played this too, if I could see enough of the 14 so as not to disturb the 12. But that's not knowing the trick of nicking the 12 a smidge on the way in to redirect the 7 towards the pocket.

I have to give Rob credit (and Ervolino) for the idea of steering the 7 to your pocket. It makes sense and the principle reminds me of what makes for a good One Pocket break -- you have to get a light clip on the head ball in order to get good action from the main force on the second ball. Kudos

The shot will play out pretty close to the way you described it should.the 12ball shouldn't move much at all, the 5ball will move slightly to it's right but mostly toward the bottom rail.Imo this shot should be hit with 1/2 a tip below center .....but not hard....hard enough to move the 7ball to the rail and a foot off.
If this shot is hit accurately the cue ball will move at most about 3" and stay behind the 12ball.

Imo it's imperative to stick the cue ball as close to the 12ball as possible, using it to block the return bank/banks that may show. You can do this by striking the cue ball a hair below center (do not draw the ball) so it plays ..dead.. After contact.

Set up positions like this one and experiment with them, using different speeds and cue ball hits, which will give you a better perspective on how balls interact with themselves. Also play particularly close attention to the cue ball and how it reacts to different hits.

Johnny Ervolino was the best I ever saw playing balls from the rack, he truly was the master when it came to recognizing dead balls in the rack.

Dr. Bill

nice point steve

alot of times if i go into the stack i like to see more than 1 ball go to my side
and sometimes a ball will leak out and be bankable or used to allow an easier reply

hitting this shot firm enough to make the 7 a threat and freeze him on the stack as you described Dr. Bill makes for a very productive inning
:)
 

Island Drive

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Bank the red solid long rail and roll whitey on top of the 9 ball. The cueing with a high rolling touch of left, will take out the possible carom from the long rail bank between the two upper balls.
 

wincardona

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Larry,

No one can possibly determine EXACTLY where those balls are going..Not the Hacker, Dr. Bill, Rod, nor anyone else !...If you were at the table, looking down on them, you could make an educated guess...Dealing with a 3/4 view..This is NOT possible... That is why IMO, the WWYD selections, are much better suited, to balls that are NOT clustered..Like maybe uptable all by themselves, or a choice of a bank, versus a safety, etc..The opportunity to learn shot selection, will be much more beneficial to someone trying to learn the game.

Shots like this, are of little benefit to anyone..! This is why I seldom engage in WWYD's like this..EVERYBODY sees them different, and they could ALL be wrong...You could even be AT THE TABLE, and guess wrong, as to how all the little tickie's and bumps may effect any given shot...stick to BASIC WWYD's, that teach you sensible offensive, or defensive manuevers, NOT shots where its all guesswork..Everyone will learn more...Save shots like this, for when you confront them, and learn from YOUR OWN mistakes..When in doubt...Defense, will usually serve you better than an offensive, blind, 'whack at the balls'..I love offense too, but I don't like leaving my oppo, a free shot to win the game, if I GUESS wrong ! ..:cool:

Dick, balls interact with one another basically the way they should.Ddepending on how their connected and how much of the head ball is hit will determine how they react. I do agree that it's very difficult at times to depict how certain shots will turn out, however, there is a logical deduction in many cases when we can pretty much take an educated guess on what will happen and be rewarded with our ability in understanding how they interact. Like I mentioned Ervolino was the best at it. I have benefitted many many times by playing shots similar to the shot we're discussing and won games by shooting them.

Experimenting with the stack and developing a better understanding of how balls interact with one another not only broadens are understanding of how to read the stack it also enhances our imagination in understanding caroms to use them in different situations. Reyes is great at it as well, he uses caroms when he runs balls often. Another player who often uses caroms to run balls and to escape traps is Cory Deuel.

What are you doing up at 4am. any ways:D

Dr. Bill
 
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