why is this a foul? (can salim vs. sky woodward)

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I think your views deserve their own thread in the main forum. This will allow you to communicate directly with the people who modified those rules 5 or 6 yrs ago. They might agree with you.
I didn't write those rules, but I remember the discussions and why certain rules were written. Getting snide with me isn't helping here.
As a tournament director of some of our past one pocket events, according to the rules as I understand them, I would have called a simple foul.
Your welcome to challenge my ruling in this case, in its own thread, be it right or wrong. I'm open to other members views.
If your again asking me to change the rules like you did in the bank forum I'm really not interested. I am in no way qualified or entitled in any aspect of the game to do that...

I agree with your response. I believe you and many other players believe that to push a cb into the stack is and always been allowed, in that it is a simple foul with no other consequences, thus it has been abused. As with the ring bank pool rules, I cannot go against the good ole boys thinking of this is how it has always been played, and I think that is where you are at.

Although the 2004 rule has it as a restoration option. But it had no back bone for it did not specifically state trapping within the stack, plus there was other factors that were probably lending to vagueness . Not sure players ever took the 2004 rule to heart, or even if they pay attention to rules anyway, they just play OP as they always have.

Illegally pushing the cb within the stack has been going on for decades in 14.1 and OP. I seen Mosconi do it against Caras, just a foul, and refereed. I've seen it happen in our MOT.
Whitey

 

[crabbcatjohn]

"As with the ring bank pool rules, I cannot go against the good ole boys thinking of this is how it has always been played, and I think that is where you are at."
These specific set of rules were modified recently for the newer, generally accepted rules of one pocket. They did not come from good ole boy rules...
You should really look at the thread where it was discussed when the changes were implemented to that section of rules before making arbitrary statements about what my opinions are based on.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

"As with the ring bank pool rules, I cannot go against the good ole boys thinking of this is how it has always been played, and I think that is where you are at."
These specific set of rules were modified recently for the newer, generally accepted rules of one pocket. They did not come from good ole boy rules...
You should really look at the thread where it was discussed when the changes were implemented to that section of rules before making arbitrary statements about what my opinions are based on.

I do have one question; "have you ever seen a player that has done a common gentle illegal push of the cb into the stack and trapping it that has ever got a penalty of more than just a standard foul".
thanks, and I have really enjoyed the discussion.
Whitey

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I do have one question; "have you ever seen a player that has done a common gentle illegal push of the cb into the stack and trapping it that has ever got a penalty of more than just a standard foul".
thanks, and I have really enjoyed the discussion.
Whitey

If you have questions about the rules please start a new thread so the people who wrote the rules can field your questions.

 

[jtompilot]

In close quarters like that, you can only move the cue ball forward if you hit it more than once.

That is a totally false statement, but it is very difficult to accomplish

 

[Bob Jewett]

(such a close shot) is very difficult to accomplish

It is difficult, but can be learned. It requires continued practice or the ability goes away. There are several techniques that work. With the balls a half-inch apart it's possible to bank a ball the long way without a foul (straight shot, level cue). The skill is absolutely standard for good balkline players.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Evergruven,
this might be helpful to better understand what a foul is. I believe the outcome when illegally trapping the cb within the stack is still in reality just a simple foul, not by rule but because I further believe no one has ever really applied the option rule to restore the balls.

In an MOT event I witnesses and illegal double hit trapping the cb within the stack. In my opinion this illegal maneuver won him the game. Afterwards I asked the opposing player if he had seen this double hit, and he said yes, but did not want to call it, you know friends/controversy. If I was refereeing, I would have restored the balls, which is fair.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fJRiC9BaZN8PTAyY8
I did this demo in May of '21 for Steve, on legal and illegal strokes as it pertains to 6.6 Intentional fouls in regard to stack play.
Bob Jewett can weigh in on this to see if my assessment of a non-foul and foul strokes are correct. But what is interesting is when the cb is frozen to an object ball then it is still a foul if the tip remains upon the cb as the stroke goes forward, or as is commonly referred to as a prolonged cue tip contact time beyond that of a normal stroke contact time of the cb.

As the rule reads that when an illegal stroke/technique traps the cb within the stack the incoming player has the option to restore the balls if possible, but when there is no referee then the players decide which of the serious fouls apply when the balls cannot be restored, either a, b, or c.
Whitey