What does t rex need to beat the lion ?

[vapros]

Now they're talking! It's all speculation, but it's sorely needed here. Don't stop now.

 

[jrhendy]

Alex giving 9/7 to any top player just will not happen. It is different when you are winning with a spot and have them beat down, then he might be able to give an extra ball. That happened with Alex at Hard Times this year for 3k a game. Alex is a very smart matchmaker.

How many times in the last 15/20 years have you seen the Filipinos give up weight for serious money and lose. Almost never. They outgamble everybody. Scott might be an exception, beating Efren in AZ a few times, but they almost always get the $$.

 

[BRLongArm]

I think the Filipinos win because they don't get out of line. Dennis is the only one that gets out of line, and he often outruns it. Biado and Alex say Dennis has ruined gambling because of the crazy spots he gives up. Now all the scores want what Dennis gives them.

 

[wincardona]

I think the Filipinos win because they don't get out of line. Dennis is the only one that gets out of line, and he often outruns it. Biado and Alex say Dennis has ruined gambling because of the crazy spots he gives up. Now all the scores want what Dennis gives them.

Joe, the Filipino's play harder and better and the good games they get are from Americans that feel they play as good or perhaps even better. The only American that has beaten the Filipinos more consistently is Shane Van Boening. Shane did it playing 10ball where his big break afforded him many more opportunities to stay at the table. None of the American players can beat the Philipinos at one pocket or rotation pool one to the fifteen. there's too much play playing rotation pool over all other rotation games. The best players will always prevail playing rotation pool. But they do match up better as well because better players have a better understanding of the game.

Bill Incardona

 

[wincardona]

I think the Filipinos win because they don't get out of line. Dennis is the only one that gets out of line, and he often outruns it. Biado and Alex say Dennis has ruined gambling because of the crazy spots he gives up. Now all the scores want what Dennis gives them.

Dennis let the cat out of the bag playing games that he was not supposed to play. Or was he?? Dennis has certainly changed many people's perspectives on what top players aren't supposed to do.

Bill Incardona

 

[catkins]

5) He's pig-headed. Won't switch from what is not working until it's too late. Feels he can out power, out execute, out run what isn't working.. Alex will do whatever it takes to win including reinventing his style if required. But we all love the big man's creativity and gamble. Big props in getting into the ring with someone he was probably a 60/40 dog with that small spot.

My estimate 11-6. Would make Tony a slight favorite. No shame. Except for Dennis O, Fador, Josh F & SVB I figure Alex can give the world that.

I might have to bet a couple houses if alex gave hime that

 

[catkins]

Alex giving 9/7 to any top player just will not happen. It is different when you are winning with a spot and have them beat down, then he might be able to give an extra ball. That happened with Alex at Hard Times this year for 3k a game. Alex is a very smart matchmaker.

How many times in the last 15/20 years have you seen the Filipinos give up weight for serious money and lose. Almost never. They outgamble everybody. Scott might be an exception, beating Efren in AZ a few times, but they almost always get the $$.

fedor beat biado for 20 k at griffs and I can not imagine the side money

 

[cincy_kid]

Alex Efren Cliff Tony - I have seen all 4 play in person and have played all but efren (Tony and Alex at dcc in trny and cliff some cheap gambling many years back). In speaking about greats, one I never got to see play that I've heard arguments about him being the goat was Ronnie.

Just curious how his game fits in with the other names mentioned. Was his creativity the thing that shined most? Reading the stack? Ball running? Always getting the cash? Was just wondering. Sorry to derail the thread.

 

[stevelomako]

Talent

A lot of players have talent.

After a certain point…it becomes what’s up there in your noggin.


Even Alex is a gambling degenerate (he might have spot Tony at that too)…but his head clears all that out when he’s focused on whatever he’s doing at the time.

Would you bet on a game with a little the worst of it with someone who is mentally strong.

Or

Would you take a little the best of it with someone who is mentally weak?

 

[NH Steve]

Would you bet on a game with a little the worst of it with someone who is mentally strong.

Or

Would you take a little the best of it with someone who is mentally weak?

Do you have this backwards? You have me confused -- but sometimes that's not so difficult lol

 

[cincy_kid]

Talent

A lot of players have talent.

After a certain point…it becomes what’s up there in your noggin.


Even Alex is a gambling degenerate (he might have spot Tony at that too)…but his head clears all that out when he’s focused on whatever he’s doing at the time.

Would you bet on a game with a little the worst of it with someone who is mentally strong.

Or

Would you take a little the best of it with someone who is mentally weak?

The former for sure! Mental toughness shows up in all games and is top of the list for strengths imo

 

[Thecoats]

Dr. Bill, I don't know if anyone tracked the scores in each game between the two players? But I'd like to know how many 8/7 games occurred between them where Tony lost? Their sample size is sufficient to gauge their respective speeds such that if Alex say won three games in their match 8/7 then Tony getting that weight would have won out. Those games would represent a two game swing wouldn't it?

You can't take a match that was played at 9/8 and try to identify the opportunities where going to 7 would have factored. It's a totally different game, totally different mindset. I once ended up five games loser getting 9/8 the next time we played 9/7 and I ended up 15 games winner. I played with a lot more freedom going to 7 than I did going to 8. I have also won giving up 9/8 and then adjusted to 10/8 and won again. We then adjusted to 9/7 and I lost.

It is amazing how much difference that one ball extra affects the player getting spotted.

 

[unoperro]

Funny how you guys all realize how the mental aspect of spotting/being spotted now. I posted up about this in the difficulty of handicapping and once before that in talking about turning Snoopy into RinTinTin. Used to play a guy 9 ball. He couldn't play unless he got the 7. Went from a 3 ball runner to stringing racks. This went on for years. Was always a case of which of us was willing to get out of line if we were going to play.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

This for me this was the best challenge match I have witnessed, being played on the toughest playing Diamond table I have ever seen.
My question was never answered, what cushions were on this table, for I have never seen a Diamond table bank this well and the pockets uncharacteristically rejecting balls instead of playing soft. I am thinking they are Black Diamond cushions.

I have to go by the commentators that know Tony. Scott said; "there are those that think Tony does not work on his game, but he really works hard on it. Also stated; " Tony has been a rampage winning like 5 tournaments". That tells me he is ready. Another comment; " Tony has slimmed down".
A very important observation by JJ; " Tony is falling behind 4 or 5 games at the start of day 1 and 2, but otherwise he is actually be out playing Alex. He needs to get off to a good start". Totally agree, and it was mentioned that Alex is free wheeling.

JJ had it right for Day 3 here comes Tony, out playing Alex, He had Alex hitting the brick wall, physically and mentally. This is the chink in the armour that Dr. Bill eluded too. I've watched a number of these challenge matches and have never witnessed a half hour break. And after that break what transpired was totally out of character for the match and for Alex on day 1, 2, and 4, ant that was he was an energized bunny, and this energized bunny continued into the night as day 3 ended. I would not mention this if it was not so glaringly out of character. I know i'll get push back on this again, but tt an observation, just like anything else that occurred during this match.

For me Tony played really well, I believe he was ready, I did not see him give up, I did not see him get fatigue.
I see Tony as a natural OP player, and I see Alex as a world champion rotation player that has learned the game of OP, but not it does not come naturally to him, In day 3 this became evident when the pressure mounted up on him. The commentators pick up on it, and their comments alluded to it. The pressure, extending thinking it over, missing shots, losing the cb, and so forth.

This was a great match with very good stay in the trenches stack play, coupled with some excellent up table play. I loved how the table played, and the cross corner banks by the foot rail. Just tremendous!
My initial thought when I seen this match up, is that Tony should of got 2 balls. Not sure Alex could handle that, maybe 10-8 would make for a great match.

I just want to add that the commentators stated that Alex is always seen playing 5 Rack Ghost.
Whitey

 

[baby huey]

Pool is so interesting. If he'd done this or that he might have won and etc. I didn't watch the match only some highlights and of course the postings here on our site. I think the commentators were all as good as it gets in OUR game so I have to respect their respective opinions about the players and the match. So, my take is that Alex is in better shape for this type of match. And, Tony isn't. Skill wise I still believe Tony has more to offer in terms of uniqueness in playing the game. The better ball runner is clearly Alex. I have always said "good pitching stops good hitting." I still believe that today. So if Tony wants to be the best he has to get in shape both physically and mentally.

 

[Renegade_56]

This for me this was the best challenge match I have witnessed, being played on the toughest playing Diamond table I have ever seen.

Whitey

This is something I constantly thought about while watching every single game in this match,,,,,,, I didn't and still don't feel the table added anything to this match, but it most certainly slowed it down.

 

[unoperro]

Pilot probably knows the table I wonder what his opinion is?

 

[lfigueroa]

Dennis let the cat out of the bag playing games that he was not supposed to play. Or was he?? Dennis has certainly changed many people's perspectives on what top players aren't supposed to do.

Bill Incardona

St. Louis got that lesson several years back when Varner would come to town and beat all the local short stops giving up 11-5 or even 13-5 and steal everyone's money.

Months later Buddy comes to town and wants to match up with the same guys at 10-7. Of course he got no takers and he left town muttering that Nick had ruined St. Louis for matching up. Basically the lesson everyone here got is how huge the difference is between a local guy and a pro. Back then I'd often travel to other cities and was always amazed at guys getting themselves into games with pro players in which -- after seeing Nick's performance -- I knew they were dead ducks. 11-7 may sound good but...

Lou Figueroa

 

[BRLongArm]

This for me this was the best challenge match I have witnessed, being played on the toughest playing Diamond table I have ever seen.
My question was never answered, what cushions were on this table, for I have never seen a Diamond table bank this well and the pockets uncharacteristically rejecting balls instead of playing soft. I am thinking they are Black Diamond cushions.

I have to go by the commentators that know Tony. Scott said; "there are those that think Tony does not work on his game, but he really works hard on it. Also stated; " Tony has been a rampage winning like 5 tournaments". That tells me he is ready. Another comment; " Tony has slimmed down".
A very important observation by JJ; " Tony is falling behind 4 or 5 games at the start of day 1 and 2, but otherwise he is actually be out playing Alex. He needs to get off to a good start". Totally agree, and it was mentioned that Alex is free wheeling.

JJ had it right for Day 3 here comes Tony, out playing Alex, He had Alex hitting the brick wall, physically and mentally. This is the chink in the armour that Dr. Bill eluded too. I've watched a number of these challenge matches and have never witnessed a half hour break. And after that break what transpired was totally out of character for the match and for Alex on day 1, 2, and 4, ant that was he was an energized bunny, and this energized bunny continued into the night as day 3 ended. I would not mention this if it was not so glaringly out of character. I know i'll get push back on this again, but tt an observation, just like anything else that occurred during this match.

For me Tony played really well, I believe he was ready, I did not see him give up, I did not see him get fatigue.
I see Tony as a natural OP player, and I see Alex as a world champion rotation player that has learned the game of OP, but not it does not come naturally to him, In day 3 this became evident when the pressure mounted up on him. The commentators pick up on it, and their comments alluded to it. The pressure, extending thinking it over, missing shots, losing the cb, and so forth.

This was a great match with very good stay in the trenches stack play, coupled with some excellent up table play. I loved how the table played, and the cross corner banks by the foot rail. Just tremendous!
My initial thought when I seen this match up, is that Tony should of got 2 balls. Not sure Alex could handle that, maybe 10-8 would make for a great match.

I just want to add that the commentators stated that Alex is always seen playing 5 Rack Ghost.
Whitey

Alex plays the five rack ghost to get in stroke. Tony plays $100 a game with weak players to get in stroke. Tony doesn't just hit balls. I'm here. I see it. He'll hang out for 4-5 hours and never hit a ball unless there is action.

 

[Renegade_56]

Alex plays the five rack ghost to get in stroke. Tony plays $100 a game with weak players to get in stroke. Tony doesn't just hit balls. I'm here. I see it. He'll hang out for 4-5 hours and never hit a ball unless there is action.

This actually was well documented during the recent match. Tony would go take a smoke break and Alex would immediately throw out a few balls on the table and set up shots he had just missed in the previous game and shoot them repeatedly until he got the desired result. This happened MOST of the match, the most apparent exception ironically was during the 10 or so game stretch when Tony went on a tear and Alex appeared to be out of focus, until he took "The Break". But yea, Alex was almost constantly trying to improve his play throughout.