Updating of our One Pocket rules

beatle

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nope the bridge is the top piece and the stick. and its used to help over a ball. if they rule it isnt allowed then its getting picky.
as it is being used for its intended purpose.
but if im playing someone and its an important shot he is getting a lot of static for sure.
 

Miller

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I have a question regarding rule 6.6 Intentional Fouls

Does this constitute an "illegal technique" as described in the second paragraph of 6.6?

View attachment 434947

nope the bridge is the top piece and the stick. and its used to help over a ball. if they rule it isnt allowed then its getting picky.
as it is being used for its intended purpose.
but if im playing someone and its an important shot he is getting a lot of static for sure.

i tend to agree. however, interested on what bob, whitey, and steve have to say....
😉
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Yes that is the use of an illegal technique and an unsportsmanlike act. Similar in using the side of the cue or the butt of the cue to stroke the cue ball. The equipment, including the bridge has to be used as it is intended, and we all know what the bridge is used for. It is allowed to stack two bridges to support the cue, as could be done in this scenario. I also believe that anything that extends the fingers is not allowed.
This very scenario has come up before on the forum.
thanks for bringing this up!
Whitey
 
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Bob Jewett

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I get to duck this one and say, "That would be a question for the General Rules of Pool, not our One Pocket rules." :LOL:
How slippery you are. Must be from years of dealing with pool players. ;)

I think it's fine to use the mechanical bridge to support your bridge hand but some rule sets explicitly forbid it. It does not give a player any unfair advantage. A snooker player did something similar in a major pro tournament and the ref said nothing, for whatever that's worth. The commentators said, "Well, that's pretty clever."
 

Miller

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I get to duck this one and say, "That would be a question for the General Rules of Pool, not our One Pocket rules." :LOL:

Yes that is the use of an illegal technique and an unsportsmanlike act. Similar in using the side of the cue or the butt of the cue to stroke the cue ball. The equipment, including the bridge has to be used as it is intended, and we all know what the bridge is used for. It is allowed to stack two bridges to support the cue, as could be done in this scenario. I also believe that anything that extends the fingers is not allowed.
This very scenario has come up before on the forum.
thanks for bringing this up!
Whitey

How slippery you are. Must be from years of dealing with pool players. ;)

I think it's fine to use the mechanical bridge to support your bridge hand but some rule sets explicitly forbid it. It does not give a player any unfair advantage. A snooker player did something similar in a major pro tournament and the ref said nothing, for whatever that's worth. The commentators said, "Well, that's pretty clever."

well fellas.....that's about as clear as mud....lol

i'd propose that using the mechanical bridge in the two fashions described are particularly unique scenarios to the game of one pocket and perhaps should be spelled out in section 6.6 (perhaps you can name it the "miller proviso" :D)

(is this addressed in 14.1 rules?)

btw....appreciate the time and consideration each of you has put into updating the official rules (y)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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In the WPA rules of play it states; the equipment can only be used for what it was meant to be used for, and it specifically states the bridge is to support the cue. It further states to Ref. Unsportsmanlike Conduct: Final unsportsmanlike act listed as H. using the equipment inappropriately.
Whitey

Miller, thanks, yes it is quite an endeavor, and believe me under rule section 5. Jumping: I was going for all kinds of rule suggestions in this one. No extensions, no special bridges and you had to use the bridge at the table, no special cues for masse shots, or for breaking.
Mainly use the cue you start the game with unless there is a failure, but can change cue for the next game.
But none of it went anywhere! LOL! But it is better to offer up suggestions than not!
thanks, Whitey
 
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gulfportdoc

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I can see the argument both ways in regards using the bridge to support one's hand. Years back I saw Cliff Joyner use the bridge across the rails to support his bridge hand, and nothing was said. I thought it was pretty clever, and vowed to remember the technique if a similar situation ever came up.

On the one hand, just because the bridge manufacturers never thought that the bridge would be used in that fashion, or that it doesn't seem to be in common practice, doesn't necessarily mean that the bridge can't be used that way. On the other hand it does seem to be a peculiar and unnatural use of the bridge.

Yet it's not as if some special foreign apparatus is being used, like a tower of some sort. There are in fact some bridges that lever up quite high, and they're accepted. I even disagree with the use of special jump cues, or uniquely designed break cues. I've always used a break cue for rotation and 8ball break shots, but it was to protect my playing cue's tip from wear.

If the argument is that only the cuestick itself should be rested upon the bridge, what if I were to use a bridge that were, say, 8" wide, and then turned it on end? That would be traditional use of a bridge.

To take it further we might wonder why a tall man should have the advantage over a man shorter in stature? I used to play with a guy who was 6' 9". I never saw him use a bridge, whereas I, at 6' 2", had to occasionally use a bridge. Should we allow short people to naturally be at a disadvantage? Should we bar people of a certain tall height from playing because they have an advantage in reach? It gets silly.

It seems to me if standard equipment is used for the general purpose it was intended, then it should be allowed. Now, if someone pulled out the triangle rack and commenced to use it as a bridge, I would object...:)
 

12squared

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I can see the argument both ways in regards using the bridge to support one's hand. Years back I saw Cliff Joyner use the bridge across the rails to support his bridge hand, and nothing was said. I thought it was pretty clever, and vowed to remember the technique if a similar situation ever came up.

On the one hand, just because the bridge manufacturers never thought that the bridge would be used in that fashion, or that it doesn't seem to be in common practice, doesn't necessarily mean that the bridge can't be used that way. On the other hand it does seem to be a peculiar and unnatural use of the bridge.

Yet it's not as if some special foreign apparatus is being used, like a tower of some sort. There are in fact some bridges that lever up quite high, and they're accepted. I even disagree with the use of special jump cues, or uniquely designed break cues. I've always used a break cue for rotation and 8ball break shots, but it was to protect my playing cue's tip from wear.

If the argument is that only the cuestick itself should be rested upon the bridge, what if I were to use a bridge that were, say, 8" wide, and then turned it on end? That would be traditional use of a bridge.

To take it further we might wonder why a tall man should have the advantage over a man shorter in stature? I used to play with a guy who was 6' 9". I never saw him use a bridge, whereas I, at 6' 2", had to occasionally use a bridge. Should we allow short people to naturally be at a disadvantage? Should we bar people of a certain tall height from playing because they have an advantage in reach? It gets silly.

It seems to me if standard equipment is used for the general purpose it was intended, then it should be allowed. Now, if someone pulled out the triangle rack and commenced to use it as a bridge, I would object...:)
You make some excellent points on the use of the bridge and I'm on the fence (wait, is that the proper use of a fence?), but here's one more thought:

It is a foul to remove your hand from your playing cue to help aim, so would it follow that it's a foul (or illegal) to remove your hand from a bridge to use it in other ways as stated?

And yes, nobody over 6' 5” should be allowed to play pool. 😂🤣
 

lfigueroa

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another variant....what about shooting from the bridge stick as it is resting across the side rails?

Here's another: I was playing Ike Runnels and his only shot was over a ball and he goes to his case and brings out a bridge head -- just a standard moose style bridge head with no stick -- and holds it in his bridge hand and uses that to shoot.

I let it go but afterwards asked him about it and he claimed he'd done it in tournaments and no one had ever said it was illegal.

Lou Figueroa
not so sure
 

vapros

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This will be a very slippery slope. I'm not recommending that you leave it alone, just that you rule very carefully. You are talking about specs for any equipment that did not come with the table or the cue. :unsure:
 

beatle

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the only way to make a bridge rule if you want one, is to say only bridges that are provided can be used and only one may be used, and the cue stick must rest in the bridge head during the stroke.
that keeps pool traditional and eliminates gimmicks one may have over his opponent.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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As this thread is apparently winding on down, I once again want to thank you guys for the suggestions and comments, they are well taken and appreciated, and recorded. I am very pleased in how this initial 1st draft has turned out and your responses towards it. I want to thank Steve for presenting it for review and for offering up the polls.
Two suggestions were made that were off the norm, one being by BRLongarm; when the shooter drops the bridge upon the stack and disturbs the balls and they are un-restorable then it should result in a loss of game. I do not believe WPA general rules has a ruling on this, but only on when an outside source disturbs the balls and they are not restorable then it is a stalemate.
I know players when anxious can sometimes rake their cue sideways on a shot and send multiple balls flying. I will bring this up in deliberations, thanks!
In my '68 BCA Official Rule Book: when the opponent disturbs a ball it is an automatic loss of game.

The other is Baby Huey's; on a legal break two balls should have to contact a rail. Either two object balls or an object ball and the cue ball. I believe I did a whole thread on Baby Huey's suggestion, and one excellent point came up by Doc, and that was when executing an unusual rail first break then most often only one ball contacts a rail. So we do not want to eliminate that break of course!

So my solution was to write the break rule like this; on the break it is required that two balls contact a rail, but when utilizing an unusual rail first break then only one ball has to contact a rail.

I brought this up to the rule committee at the time, and I have highlighted it here again, so when suggestions are made I will present them.

Along with your guys suggestions, I am still making suggestions on the other end, and with this thread winding down and also the polls then it is back into deliberations.
Thanks again, Whitey
 
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lll

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With all due respect Whitey and also thank you for all your time and effort
And to Steve and Bob Jewett the other members of the committee for their time and effort
If you make the two balls have to hit a rail break with only one exception
then you remove the break where you hit the Apex ball and freeze on it
Sending the corner ball toward your pocket
If you were going to allow the rail first break
you should allow this one too
therefore if you leave the rule the way it is
that only one ball has to hit a rail
there is no need for exceptions
Jmho
 

darmoose

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I agree with Larry. Rules should be firm and clear, and no exceptions if possible. 99.99% of the guys I have ever played with break with an OB and the CB going to the rail. It is a mistake to try to write rules trying to cover every little thing that might come up. There is nothing to stop a player breaking rail first from getting two balls to the rail, other than his own fear of selling out. The answer for him is to use a different break, duh.....

Trying to write a separate rule for dropping the rake on several balls is unnecessary. Suffice it to make a rule that disturbing, say, three or more balls is loss of game no matter the cause. Terms like "unrestorable" are subjective and rest in the eye of the beholder, leading to disagreements.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Yes, Larry you are right, and I should of included that it would eliminate the defensive shot of softly hitting the head ball. I believe this shot mainly, but there could be others, is why Baby Huey stated; "it would speed up the game".
I probably will not bring this idea up to the committee again for as I remember I did not get much of a response the last time I brought it up, but I felt it was fair to highlight it once again.
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But, without ideas there is no progression of thought. This is the initial building stone of rule writing.
Here is an example: In my trials of rule writing, I finally bought into the notion of cue tip contact time upon the cue ball is a way to judge shots for fouls vs. a push shot.
This opened up a whole new avenue of rule writing for me. For different shots have different cue tip contact time. Such as a normal every day shot as compared to Cushion Compression Shots and Cue Ball Impeded Shots (example; masse shot impeded by the bed of the table). This leads into the development of what then is the legal criteria for these shots, or what makes these shots illegal. For instance; when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball it is illegal to gently lay the cue tip upon the cue ball and then stroke through, an illegal push stroke, the cue tip contact time is inordinately prolonged, and a foul. Push Stroke; is when the cue tip remains upon the cue ball as the stroke goes forward.
Same for when a cue ball is frozen to an object ball that in turn is frozen to the rail. The Paul Newman Hustler Bank shot for example, the cue tip can not remain upon the cue ball for a prolonged cue tip time above what is allowed for that type of shot, nor can the stroke be impeded and not allowed to follow through (jam up on the cue ball). This is the foul criteria for this type of cushion compression shot. Important knowledge for OP for the frequency of cushion compression shots occurring.

These are the higher advance writings that are not present in todays general rules. I do not really considered them advance for they only depict the action of the balls as we witness everyday in a game of pool, but put into words. It is truly unfortunate that others do not view them this way, as in their simplistic form of just wording what is witnessed on the table. The key is knowing (experience & knowledge) what makes these shots a foul when executed poorly, the foul criteria. There are a number of factors involved in the resistance to writings of higher levels of knowledge.
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On another note; overwhelmingly the whole ball is winning the poll. At this point I have not discussed what this means with Steve. But if he does decide to go with Whole Ball then I believe this to be correct!
I believe in playing Whole Ball then the edge of the ball of the cue ball and/or the object ball then can not touch the head string line, correct?

Note: even though in most governing body rules the head string line is considered outside of the kitchen, that does not matter when playing Whole Ball, if I am correct! For it is the visual we are aiming for, entirely out or entirely in.
thanks, Whitey
 
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unoperro

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Since I get punished for making a ball on the break ,yes re-break is a punishment, ban the damn kick break and penalize my common opponent also😉
 
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