The Truth About Pocket Size....

Fatboy

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Feb 27, 2007
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Vegas & LA
Smaller pockets favor stronger players 100% of the time, Im talking about shot makers not movers. Artie and I had this discussion yesterday, So I decided to say something about it.

I talk to JA 7 days a week and we dont talk about pool often, but when we do its mostly about pocket size. He says he likes to play on 4" or 3 7/8" pockets because it "Puts a premium on shooting straight, which favors the player who shoots the straightest". Those are his exact words, I cant argue with JA, he is probably the most knowledgeable player I have ever spoke to. He knows more about pool than I realized existed a few years back. I have learned things from him about pool that are so technical I cant make use of them, but players of his speed can and do, I showed Artie yesterday what I'm referring too. And you'll have to take my word for it cause I aint putting that info on the street, Artie will Vouch for me on this. Right Artie? Did I not show you some stuff you didnt know about that made good sense from a players stand point? I dont think Artie could make use of it either because it has to do with rotation games, but my point is JA and Shane and a few other guys know some amazing things.

I cant argue against that, I'm going to miss more often on a smaller pocket table than JA so he has to have the best of it with smaller pockets. The bigger the pockets the better I have of it, even though I still have way the worst of it. I can luck in more balls, miss by 1/4" and still keep the table if its a 5" pocket instead of a 4" pocket.


How can a better player have the better of it with bigger pockets?

best
Fatboy
 

Frank Almanza

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Upland, California
I don't think that there is any question that tighter pockets favors the better player, and that goes for any game.
The question about pocket size came up in one pocket when the better player is giving up weight. In this case the discussion was if the smaller pocket favors the person getting the weight or the one giving up the weight.

The smaller pockets will limit the better players ability to put big runs together thus giving the weaker player more opportunities. I don't think you can give up the same weight to the same guy on both type of tables.

The better player will pass on certain shots, especially after missing a couple of them.

There are exceptions to this as far as some very high quality players are concerned but even for them there are limitations.
 

beatle

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Jun 21, 2009
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ill tell you how eric

when talking about players that are about the same speed playing even that is 100 percent correct.

but when spotting someone a lot it can change.

example,

a top ball runneris playing someone straight pool 50 no count to his one ball. ( this is an extreme example just to show the reasoning).

if you play on tight pockets he may get many tries at making his one ball. but on buckets you will get to make your run very easily and he may never get any tries.

make it 200 no count and the bad player has to make five balls. you may never get to run 200 on tight pockets, where on buckets you still will run 200 at times.

same applies to one pocket giving someone 18 to 4. with buckets the better player gets out when they are open. the worse player doesnt get many more balls as he makes only a few at a time and that is all he needs anyway.

there may be a point where the pockets get too large and it moves the edge back to the bad player. my guess is that happens around 5 inches, as the good player at around 4.5 to 5 inch pockets gets to run maximum as he can fudge pockets and get out from most places he can get out with larger pockets.
 

Fatboy

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Feb 27, 2007
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I have to think about the weight factor some, then I'll comment, I will also ask JA. he is in Canada this weekend and is on txt messages. I will talk to him Monday and post what he thinks of this topic.

Thanks for the replies.


Billy I hope your feeling better.


I will be around here a little more often now, I been real busy recently and will be for a few more weeks, I guess then is when I'll be back-not thats a big deal. But for the record I do enjoy this site and read more than I post here, mainly because I come here to learn and this is where the sharp guys in pool who are online post.

Just my thoughts and thanks to everyone,


oh yeah John Henderson I'll get you present out on Tuesday I havent seen Cotten yet, were playing tuesday.

Best,

Fatboy<--------getting better everyday:)
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Frank Almanza said:
I don't think that there is any question that tighter pockets favors the better player, and that goes for any game.
The question about pocket size came up in one pocket when the better player is giving up weight. In this case the discussion was if the smaller pocket favors the person getting the weight or the one giving up the weight.

The smaller pockets will limit the better players ability to put big runs together thus giving the weaker player more opportunities. I don't think you can give up the same weight to the same guy on both type of tables.

The better player will pass on certain shots, especially after missing a couple of them.

There are exceptions to this as far as some very high quality players are concerned but even for them there are limitations.



IF the tighter table favores the better player. Then why would a tighter table favoer the weaker player if its a even game. Its completly redicoulous.

Because what you are saying is the tighter pockets favor the better player and if the game is even the still have too favor the better player nothing changed. Either way its a even game.

Weather they are playing even or getting spoted the tighter table still helps the better player. You cant say a tighter table helps the better player in a even game.

But a handicap game a tighter table favoers the weacker player. Why would it favor the weaker player.I think we will agree on this that a better player will ajust too a tighter table better then a weacker player.

And the weacker player will be shooting harder and longer shots. Brcause he will get out moved. But nobody talks about that why.


All the keep saying is a bigger pocket table helps the player giving out a big spot. But nobody said that the bigger pocket table will be a lot better for the weacker player too. And the weacker player has way less balls too make.

So do you want too make it easier for the weacker player go ahead. I want too make it harder for him. Because he only has too make a few balls. And a weeker player will run a lot more 4 and outs then the better player runing 18 and out.

And the better player can only win in a game like that by out moveing the weacker player. Outshooting him will not get the money.

He has too play mistake free too win. And I dont want no weak player shooying a give up in a easy pocket needing 4 balls. I hope we both take a couple off scratches too help me with a better game.

If you dont belive what I wrote I would advice you not to give up big spots. Those big runns dont grow on trees no matter howe big the pockets are.


And the balls have to be open in the correct positions too run them no matter what the size off the pockets are. Sometimes you can only run two or three balls no matter what the pocket sizes are.

I hope I wxplained the game a little better. Then sraying glued too just tight pockets or loose pockets. There id more too the game then that.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
beatle said:
ill tell you how eric

when talking about players that are about the same speed playing even that is 100 percent correct.

but when spotting someone a lot it can change.

example,

a top ball runneris playing someone straight pool 50 no count to his one ball. ( this is an extreme example just to show the reasoning).

if you play on tight pockets he may get many tries at making his one ball. but on buckets you will get to make your run very easily and he may never get any tries.

make it 200 no count and the bad player has to make five balls. you may never get to run 200 on tight pockets, where on buckets you still will run 200 at times.

same applies to one pocket giving someone 18 to 4. with buckets the better player gets out when they are open. the worse player doesnt get many more balls as he makes only a few at a time and that is all he needs anyway.

there may be a point where the pockets get too large and it moves the edge back to the bad player. my guess is that happens around 5 inches, as the good player at around 4.5 to 5 inch pockets gets to run maximum as he can fudge pockets and get out from most places he can get out with larger pockets.



Lets straighten this out wright away. THe example in straigt pool is not realistic were in one pocket the game is realistic.

In straight pool you are talking about shooting and running ballsIts a different proposition game.

Thier is realy no out manovering or runing 10 palls and playing safe thats why you cant use sa straight pool proposition game with one pocket.

Because the player will shoot knoweing he has to run 50 balls. And that takes away the moving and sratage.

And her is one more thing a better movers and a deffensive player giving out a big spot will allways thake the tighter table.

Because it will hurt the week player more then him. And he will not shoot at a shot he thinks he will miss or dell out the game.

But the weeker player will shoot at every thing. I could give names and examples but Im not looking to help someone getting beat.

So iF you are getting a big spot shoot at everything.

And a good player forget about how tight the table is if he gives up weight he doesnt want the weacker player shooting at anything.

The worst thing a weacker player can do is not too shot and try too out move the better player. Its the biggestb mistake a weacker player can do.

Because he is not going too out move the better player. And shooting at every thing buts pressure on the better player

Because he knowes if you make the shot you can win. And you can even shoot and miss and lock him up completly.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Messages
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Frank Almanza said:
I don't think that there is any question that tighter pockets favors the better player, and that goes for any game.
The question about pocket size came up in one pocket when the better player is giving up weight. In this case the discussion was if the smaller pocket favors the person getting the weight or the one giving up the weight.

The smaller pockets will limit the better players ability to put big runs together thus giving the weaker player more opportunities. I don't think you can give up the same weight to the same guy on both type of tables.

The better player will pass on certain shots, especially after missing a couple of them.

There are exceptions to this as far as some very high quality players are concerned but even for them there are limitations.

All the examples that are giving are about the better player missing more shots. THats true just like the weeker player will miss way more because he is a weacker playerOr dont you belive that.

And Then you say if the better player misses ewo shots. he will go too peaces. Let me tell you something unless you dont agree.

The better player will not shoot at shots he will miss. His shots will bee better shots choices. And he should not be shoting at shots he might miss.

You are making it sound like the better shoter is the worst shooter. And you have the better shooter missing the shots.

Witch will be the complete opposite. Because the weacker player will be missing more shots and shoting worse shote.

The better player knowes the pockets are tighter and he wont take a chance on a shot that he might miss becayse he has more sense or he wouldnt be the better player.

And the worse player will miss wayb more and make worse decisions on a tighter table because he doesnt have the sense then the good player.

And he will shot at shoots that he thinks he can make. And he will miss way more then the better player.

And all you people who have been repling are makeing it like the weacker shooter will shoot better on the tight pocket table then the good shooter. Witch is redicoulous.

And the good shooter will ajust way better to the tight pockets then a weak player. Because I weak player realy hasant even learnded to shoot decent yet.

Or why id je getting 18 yo 4 Who ever figured that spot out must have brain damage.

I no a lot worse players then Dicky that would love to get 18 to 5. And Dicky is a very good mover. He is not the ordinary weak player that cant move.

And a week player that is getting 18 to 4 is supose too let the cue ball loose a lot off times in a game. And I dont see that.

People might see different things then I do but I watch and see what the wek player does what he shoots and what he does with the cue ball.

And certain things that a player or weack player does tells me his speed and how he plays. Thier arent too meny people qualified in that field .

And they play anyway because they are getting stacket. And with thier own money thier would be no game.

But getting backet the will play anything. Because if the are shooting top speed and makeing everything the will still win.
 

petie

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Citrus Springs, FL
I was always taught that there are at least two kinds of One Pocket players--Movers and Shooters. They have even been called Shooters and Bunters. Even though it is always going to be very tough to beat a Shooter, I think a Mover has a much better chance of beating a Shooter on a tight table than he does on a loose table. This isn't to say that he will win--just that his chances of winning are better if the table is tight than if it is loose.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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petie said:
I was always taught that there are at least two kinds of One Pocket players--Movers and Shooters. They have even been called Shooters and Bunters. Even though it is always going to be very tough to beat a Shooter, I think a Mover has a much better chance of beating a Shooter on a tight table than he does on a loose table. This isn't to say that he will win--just that his chances of winning are better if the table is tight than if it is loose.



THats correct. And thier is a difference between moveing and bunting . Bunting is the old style one pocket that they played not to give up a shot.

BUt thats realy not moveing. Varner and hopkines play that way real good.

But a mover will beat a bunter and shooter. Thier is a big difference.

And a bunter and a mover wants the tightest table posable because they rely on thier moveing to win the game.And want to make it as hard as possable for the shooter.

You are correct when you said abunter wants the tightest table he can get. Because he will not shoot at the hard shots that a shooter will shot.

And today there all shooters. MOnster John is one off the few people That I seen that tries too move. THe rest are all Billy the kid. THe gun fighter. THe bounty hunters have faded away.
 

petie

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Thanks for your expertise, Artie. I'm still waiting for your commentary on One Pocket games on the web or DVD's and or to seeing you play or give lessons on DVD. I think it would do the world of One Pocket a huge service and there are lots of guys like me who would be hangin' on your every word.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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petie said:
Thanks for your expertise, Artie. I'm still waiting for your commentary on One Pocket games on the web or DVD's and or to seeing you play or give lessons on DVD. I think it would do the world of One Pocket a huge service and there are lots of guys like me who would be hangin' on your every word.



I dont think they want me comantatating. Because I tell it like it is. I dont go along with the programm and never have. But I can tell you this I will stick too the game and not talk about everything but the game.

Thats what real comantating is. Ehat the players are doping and what the are tryiong too do.

And what they should be doing. And bring out wright away thier mistake or what they are doing thats real good for them to win the game.

And what I see in all sports because I think I have watched more sports games then almost anybody. And the miss playes.

AndDont give every shot that they shoot. And the need too explain the game and every shot and what they are doing.

I never comantated but I no what too do. And the fans miss a loy off things that should be said and shown.

They show a play thats close and the wont showe it again and go to talking about something else then they play they just played. And the wont even showe it on the replay.

So you can see if he was inbounds or out off bounds. If I was thier boss the would have too do a better job.

And stick too anouncing the game Thier are good and bad anouncers just like good and bad comantayors.

Chriss Byrmen is great he sticks too the fats. No bull shit and he tells it wright the way it is. I am no profesuinal at anouncing or comentating. But I will gareentee you that you will no whats going on in the game.

And not debate or argue with the other comantator. And about this shot or that shot. You stick too whats going on.

And what each player is doing. And wht you think what the player is going too shoot. Not about what you think.

about the players and the game. Not what you think on every shot. You can do that later or breack down the match after words.

All I her is what would you do or what would the other comantator do. Talk about what the player shooting is going too do. Not what you would do . Like on our one pocket site. Were people ask people for thier opinions.

When tou anounce a game. Talk about whats going on un the game. And what the players are doing on every shot. Just like the camra man. Stick to showeing every shot.

And a good angle. Not miss a shot and have the camera somewere else but on the shot at hand.

Like I said I am no pro but I no what needs to be seen and shown. And the reason I no is because I am betting and I want too see every shot.

I do not want too her some bullshit. Or miss a shot. I want too no exacly whats going on.

And missing a key shot can be very aggrevating to the spectator. Most people dont notice every play because they are not into the game. The same way a gambler is.

And if you would bet on every play then you would umderstand better what I am talking about. Like I said I am no pro but I no what they should be talking about.

And its not the bickering and nonsense. I watch people commantate and they dont even have the wright score or who is winning. I see it in baseball all the time.

THey dont no the correct inning what the score is what the correct count is on the batter. Or whos batting what inning THey call foul balls fair.

I have seen baseball games were the anouncers make 10 mistakes or more a game. Howe can that be the game is wright in front off them.

And some off the things they say has got nothung to do with the baseball game. Like they are board. I guess they make all those mistakes because thier mind is not on the game. And they get paid regardless. ..

One off the dummbest things I have seen they gave Harry Carry a statue. At wrigly field.

And all he ever did was nock they Cubs every time he opened his mouth when he use too anounce for the Sox at Cominskie park.

He was brutle and the cubs gave him a statue. He would nock wrigly fiield because it was a smaller ball park to hit home runs.

And a cub would hit a home run and he said That wouldnt be a home run in a telephone booth. And he nocket all the cub players.

And his 7 inning song take me out too the ball park was always sung at cominskie park.

At the white sox games. and I guess he brought it with him and thet sing it at wrigly field no in the 7 inning.

And he was drunk have the time he would anounce and never got anything wright and he would slur his words if you are a drinker you no what I am talking about.

But when you comintate you stick too the game and shots. Not too all the other things they talk about and miss whats going on in the game. What they should be talking about.

But people say what they want even when they comintate. Thats they way it is.

And you can go through the whole game and people can learn a lot from that. You can point out the mistakes .

They wrong shot the wrong position . Do they realy no what they are doing. Are the running the balls they way the figer it out ahead off time.

Why they are shooting what they are shooting. And you can even point out how they yrapet themselves. And what they shouuld have shot. But thier is a time and place for everything.


Just like before the players play asking them about the game and what are they going to do to try and win. Do they feel nervous or how do they feel playing a champion. And what they can do to beat the better player.

You should be getting the players answers to the qouistions. And see what they say. But thier will always be different opinions. And some people will never agree.

But they are intiteled too thier opinion weather it is wright or wrong.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Artie Bodendorfer said:
I dont think they want me comantatating. Because I tell it like it is. I dont go along with the programm and never have. But I can tell you this I will stick too the game and not talk about everything but the game.

Thats what real comantating is. Ehat the players are doping and what the are tryiong too do.

And what they should be doing. And bring out wright away thier mistake or what they are doing thats real good for them to win the game.

And what I see in all sports because I think I have watched more sports games then almost anybody. And the miss playes.

AndDont give every shot that they shoot. And the need too explain the game and every shot and what they are doing.

I never comantated but I no what too do. And the fans miss a loy off things that should be said and shown.

They show a play thats close and the wont showe it again and go to talking about something else then they play they just played. And the wont even showe it on the replay.

So you can see if he was inbounds or out off bounds. If I was thier boss the would have too do a better job.

And stick too anouncing the game Thier are good and bad anouncers just like good and bad comantayors.

Chriss Byrmen is great he sticks too the fats. No bull shit and he tells it wright the way it is. I am no profesuinal at anouncing or comentating. But I will gareentee you that you will no whats going on in the game.

And not debate or argue with the other comantator. And about this shot or that shot. You stick too whats going on.

And what each player is doing. And wht you think what the player is going too shoot. Not about what you think.

about the players and the game. Not what you think on every shot. You can do that later or breack down the match after words.

All I her is what would you do or what would the other comantator do. Talk about what the player shooting is going too do. Not what you would do . Like on our one pocket site. Were people ask people for thier opinions.

When tou anounce a game. Talk about whats going on un the game. And what the players are doing on every shot. Just like the camra man. Stick to showeing every shot.

And a good angle. Not miss a shot and have the camera somewere else but on the shot at hand.

Like I said I am no pro but I no what needs to be seen and shown. And the reason I no is because I am betting and I want too see every shot.

I do not want too her some bullshit. Or miss a shot. I want too no exacly whats going on.

And missing a key shot can be very aggrevating to the spectator. Most people dont notice every play because they are not into the game. The same way a gambler is.

And if you would bet on every play then you would umderstand better what I am talking about. Like I said I am no pro but I no what they should be talking about.

And its not the bickering and nonsense. I watch people commantate and they dont even have the wright score or who is winning. I see it in baseball all the time.

THey dont no the correct inning what the score is what the correct count is on the batter. Or whos batting what inning THey call foul balls fair.

I have seen baseball games were the anouncers make 10 mistakes or more a game. Howe can that be the game is wright in front off them.

And some off the things they say has got nothung to do with the baseball game. Like they are board. I guess they make all those mistakes because thier mind is not on the game. And they get paid regardless. ..

One off the dummbest things I have seen they gave Harry Carry a statue. At wrigly field.

And all he ever did was nock they Cubs every time he opened his mouth when he use too anounce for the Sox at Cominskie park.

He was brutle and the cubs gave him a statue. He would nock wrigly fiield because it was a smaller ball park to hit home runs.

And a cub would hit a home run and he said That wouldnt be a home run in a telephone booth. And he nocket all the cub players.

And his 7 inning song take me out too the ball park was always sung at cominskie park.

At the white sox games. and I guess he brought it with him and thet sing it at wrigly field no in the 7 inning.

And he was drunk have the time he would anounce and never got anything wright and he would slur his words if you are a drinker you no what I am talking about.

But when you comintate you stick too the game and shots. Not too all the other things they talk about and miss whats going on in the game. What they should be talking about.

But people say what they want even when they comintate. Thats they way it is.

And you can go through the whole game and people can learn a lot from that. You can point out the mistakes .

They wrong shot the wrong position . Do they realy no what they are doing. Are the running the balls they way the figer it out ahead off time.

Why they are shooting what they are shooting. And you can even point out how they yrapet themselves. And what they shouuld have shot. But thier is a time and place for everything.


Just like before the players play asking them about the game and what are they going to do to try and win. Do they feel nervous or how do they feel playing a champion. And what they can do to beat the better player.

You should be getting the players answers to the qouistions. And see what they say. But thier will always be different opinions. And some people will never agree.

But they are intiteled too thier opinion weather it is wright or wrong.


I can tell you this I no one pocket and I no things about the game
that nobody else knowes because I learned it myself.

And most off all the other subjects I a week because I never wanted to learn them.

Gambling is the only thing that ealy fasanated me. And figuring out how too win.

And I can honestly say I am one off a few players that won on KNowledge not shooting.
 

Scrzbill

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Messages
3,960
From
Eagles Rest, Wa
Excuse me for being a butt insky but as a weaker player who needs a spot from the Differ, I prefer a tight pocket table when I'm getting the weight I need to play. I especially like to play the run out type of player on a tighter table because after about four or five hours of dinking the balls over and leaving traps, the run out player starts missing those shots he was making at the beginning. Hell if I run three, that's a good run from me. My biggest problem is I like to gamble and play one pocket and I would much rather play someone better than me than play at all. Since that is just about anyone who plays pool, I get a lot of choices. I get 10/6 and the smacks from JR Hendy for life and one of these days I'm going to book a winner.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Scrzbill said:
Excuse me for being a butt insky but as a weaker player who needs a spot from the Differ, I prefer a tight pocket table when I'm getting the weight I need to play. I especially like to play the run out type of player on a tighter table because after about four or five hours of dinking the balls over and leaving traps, the run out player starts missing those shots he was making at the beginning. Hell if I run three, that's a good run from me. My biggest problem is I like to gamble and play one pocket and I would much rather play someone better than me than play at all. Since that is just about anyone who plays pool, I get a lot of choices. I get 10/6 and the smacks from JR Hendy for life and one of these days I'm going to book a winner.


A tight pocket table can not help a week shooter. He has enough problems on a easy pocket table.

And if you are the weeker player too start with why would you want too make it even tougher for yourself.

Forget about making it harder for the better player. The key is too make it easier for you.
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,022
From
baton rouge, la
Here's the real skinny on this topic, and I hope it will end it once and for all.

A one-pocket player named Paul
had a hexadihedronal ball,
and the square of its weight
times his pecker plus eight
was two thirds of four fifths of fu*kall. :D :eek:
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
petie said:
Thanks for your expertise, Artie. I'm still waiting for your commentary on One Pocket games on the web or DVD's and or to seeing you play or give lessons on DVD. I think it would do the world of One Pocket a huge service and there are lots of guys like me who would be hangin' on your every word.[/QUOTE

U would like too do it at the Us open with Buddy Hall. For one gamme If that could be done.

And I hope its rwo great players playing.

Even Alex and Scott. Or Gab and Shannon.

Or Shane and another good player Or Eferine But I dont no if ue is going to be thier. Or how his health is.

But I would like too comantate one game with budy. Or the 3 muskateers Ronnie Kelly and me.

But the might not what a Hustler comontating that never played in tournements.

But I no one thing whoever listen to iy will like it. Even wuth my pool room slang.

Let me no if someone can get it sone. I would enjoy it because I never did it before. But I do no the game. And I think the people listning will realy enyoy it.

But the only way I can see what they think is if I get too do it.
 
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