The Real Price off a Free Scratch

[gulfportdoc]

We're on the same page

We're on the same page

If you can get the correct percentages or probability off the spot. You can ajust . At the start off the game. I will go by your math. 9 to 7 is 1.28..So the player going too 9 should be paying more for his scratch then the player going too 7 ... Or each person pays his scratches with a different money percentage. In a close game like 8 to 7 or 9 to 8 the balls value is not as valubale as 16 to 4. But in the close games you could ajust the scratch price with a money line. And the weeker player only gets the extra money if he wins.

So if a guy is giving me 9-7, and we're playing for $20, then to even out the scratch value, he really ought to pay me approx. $25 if he loses. (9/7 = 1.28, and 1.28 of $20 = $25.60). And if the game is 8-7, then the weaker player should get paid an extra 14 cents on the dollar if he wins (8/7 = 1.14). So if it's $20 per game, the weaker player ought to get $22.80 if he wins.

If the player who is getting 9 to 3 sctatches and it cost him one ball. And the good player scratches and it costs him one ball. Then they are playing even on thier scratches. And if you play by those rules you are still playing him 9 to 3 .

Yes, I'm still playing him 9-3, but isn't his hidden real handicap prior to the start of the game either 9-5 or 7-3? In other words, the better player has the advantage of 2 balls minimum, since he doesn't have to pay an extra 2 balls on a foul (he should be paying 3 for each of his fouls, while the weaker player only pays 1).

Of course, if neither player scratches, then they really DID play at 9-3. But as you say, the odds before the game starts are based upon probability, not on results. And it seems to me that the real odds would be something other than 9-3.

Doc

 

[wincardona]

So if a guy is giving me 9-7, and we're playing for $20, then to even out the scratch value, he really ought to pay me approx. $25 if he loses. (9/7 = 1.28, and 1.28 of $20 = $25.60). And if the game is 8-7, then the weaker player should get paid an extra 14 cents on the dollar if he wins (8/7 = 1.14). So if it's $20 per game, the weaker player ought to get $22.80 if he wins.

Yes, I'm still playing him 9-3, but isn't his hidden real handicap prior to the start of the game either 9-5 or 7-3? In other words, the better player has the advantage of 2 balls minimum, since he doesn't have to pay an extra 2 balls on a foul (he should be paying 3 for each of his fouls, while the weaker player only pays 1).

Of course, if neither player scratches, then they really DID play at 9-3. But as you say, the odds before the game starts are based upon probability, not on results. And it seems to me that the real odds would be something other than 9-3.

Doc

Are you guy's serious? I can see it now, Cliff Joyner takes his calculator out and ask The Beard how to figure the overage on the 2 scratches.

Billy I.

 

[gulfportdoc]

... Another thing, this free scratch thing was originally brought up in regard to the game Dippie had with Gabe. Artie was trying to evaluate the value of the free scratch that Dippie was getting. Well it's going to be very hard to do that because what Dippie was getting WAS NOT A FREE SCRATCH. It actually was a free PUSH. If you recall Dippie had to stipulate before he shoots that he was taking his PUSH. And one free push per game for Dippie is not worth 4 1/2 gabe balls, or 1 Dippie ball. Totally rediculous.

If Gabe was giving 18-4, along with a free "scratch", then --according to Artie's arithmetic-- Gabe was in essence before the game started giving 13-1/2 to 4, because each ball of Peat's was worth 4-1/2 of Gabe's.

However, if the spot really was only a free "push", then that would somewhat reduce the value of the spot to Peat. In other words, since a pocket scratch or other foul would not meet the criterion, then Peat gets less value from that part of the spot.

How much less? It's hard to quantify prior to the game. For example, does a guy pocket scratch more often than he wants to take an intentional foul? Would you say that the "push" distinction is only half as valuable as is the "free scratch" provision? If so, then the spot's value would be reduced to Peat by that much. Now the spot in actuality would be 15-3/4 to 4 (1 scratch of Peat's is only worth 2-1/4 of Gabe's points).

The thread has spawned 2-3 different additional subjects, but I think this revelation of what a scratch is worth in a handicapped game is unique, and pretty damned interesting. I'd have never thought of it myself.

Doc

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT...

THIS THREAD IS NOW THE EQUAL OF THE AIMING THREADS OVER AT AZB.COM...

- Goast

 

[Greyghost]

I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT...

THIS THREAD IS NOW THE EQUAL OF THE AIMING THREADS OVER AT AZB.COM...

- Goast

OH HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN lol......jk

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Are you guy's serious? I can see it now, Cliff Joyner takes his calculator out and ask The Beard how to figure the overage on the 2 scratches.

Billy I.

You do seem to have been a willing participant . That could be a fourth sign .

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT...

THIS THREAD IS NOW THE EQUAL OF THE AIMING THREADS OVER AT AZB.COM...

- Goast

Goasty,

I beg to differ with you. The All-Zaniness aiming threads are much more intelligent than anything yet written in this thread(by anyone) after the first 18 posts or so. This is one of, if not the stupidest, subjects I've ever seen here. Anyone that can't figure out that a "free called-in-advance push" ain't worth hardly spit ain't gonna figure out how to get to the poolroom anyway.

Dennis

 

[gulfportdoc]

Artie.....Just wanted to ask you and/or Billy something that I thought of, just out of curiosity...I'm asking seriously, not joking...

When you and Billy played partners against John H. and Ricky Byrd...when it was your teams time to shoot and you conferred about what shot to shoot - how much of the time did you two agree on what was the best shot to shoot - 60%? - 75%? - 90%?, or ?%

Ghost, from my perspective, strictly as an observer who watched several hours of the contest, I'd guess that they agreed on the shot 60-70% of the time with little or no discussion.

At other times, due to the differences in their respective styles, Artie probably believed that Billy wanted to shoot at too many difficult, or unproductive shots; whereas Billy probably felt as though Artie was inclined to over-move.

Several times Billy tried to persuade Artie to shoot at shots that Artie was uncomfortable with. But as you know, Artie is very stubborn. And Billy is very antsy.

Doc

 

[lll]

But as you know, Artie is very stubborn. And Billy is very antsy.

Doc

REALLY??????????????????????

 

[SJDinPHX]

Goasty,

I beg to differ with you. The All-Zaniness aiming threads are much more intelligent than anything yet written in this thread(by anyone) after the first 18 posts or so. This is one of, if not the stupidest, subjects I've ever seen here. Anyone that can't figure out that a "free called-in-advance push" ain't worth hardly spit ain't gonna figure out how to get to the poolroom anyway.

Dennis

Finally, a voice of reason. (albeit, from an unlikely source..)

To subject the enlightened [sic] among us, to try and digest what has been written (or scrawled) on this subject, is incomprehensible...

That we seem to have quasi-intelligent human being's (ie. Doc, Billy, and Artie, etc.) actually keeping this clusterf**k alive for 150 posts, is truely amazing...Puhleeze,Let it die, the death it deserves...Aiming threads have been far more exciting...

El Duck <---believes, in the context of this particular game, the "one free foul" Dippy was getting...is worth even less than spit..

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ghost, from my perspective, strictly as an observer who watched several hours of the contest, I'd guess that they agreed on the shot 60-70% of the time with little or no discussion.

At other times, due to the differences in their respective styles, Artie probably believed that Billy wanted to shoot at too many difficult, or unproductive shots; whereas Billy probably felt as though Artie was inclined to over-move.

Several times Billy tried to persuade Artie to shoot at shots that Artie was uncomfortable with. But as you know, Artie is very stubborn. And Billy is very antsy.

Doc

Thanks for answering Doc...all I heard was crickets, until you answered......but then again, who knows? - Artie may have answered my question in some other thread, like maybe in the "Looking for a copy of Buddy Hall's The Rifleman book" thread for instance, and I never saw his answer...

- Gost

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

All this scratching stuff is making me dizzy. Whenever you play someone 8 to 7 or 8 to 3, the possibility of either player scratching is or should be factored in when you make the game. So if you're going to change the scratch penalty based on the ball spot, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE THE SPOT.

Games (spots) are made based on the rules we play by, so if you're going to change the scratch penalty for each player, then you're going to have to renegotiate the spot.

Another thing, this free scratch thing was originally brought up in regard to the game Dippie had with Gabe. Artie was trying to evaluate the value of the free scratch that Dippie was getting. Well it's going to be very hard to do that because what Dippie was getting WAS NOT A FREE SCRATCH. It actually was a free PUSH. If you recall Dippie had to stipulate before he shoots that he was taking his PUSH. And one free push per game for Dippie is not worth 4 1/2 gabe balls, or 1 Dippie ball. Totally rediculous.

Does anyone actually think that if Gabe said to Dippie....Dippie, i'll give you 13 1/2 to 4 but no free scratch (that's taking the 4 1/2 balls off of Gabes spot) Dippie would play? Dippie would laugh at him, and I don't blame him.

Am I the only one that understands this? Or am I actually that far off base?

If this insanity keeps up i'm going to need a doctor.

Billy I.

If all this scratching stuff is making you dizzy.You will be ok because your the doctor.

John the Greek yous too say the reason people get dizzy because they dont have enough oxegen in his brain.

And John the Greek told Dave too move over in the cab. Because Dave was stealing all his oxegen and he couldnt think.

Why would dave take 13 and a half balls to 4 and a free scratch. When he was getting 18 to 4 and a free scratch?

The rules were made for people playing even. Not handy capet games. And those were the only rules and that is what they played by.


What I said was the value off one ball too the value off the spot. One balll off DAves is worth 4 and a half balls off Daves balls. If THey Both take two scratches the game is 20 to 6 and one scratch by each player would be 19 to 5.

And anyone can see thier is somthing wrong with that. And Gab wouldnt give two balls for the free scratch.

Number one the rule says ball for ball. Number two why would anyone buy a scratch that they might not use in the game at all.

And what I am saying forget about daves free scratch he was getting. IF he didnt get that spot and played 18 to 4. And Dave scratches.Howe much is Daves ball woth compaired to Gabs amount off balls? I know its more then one.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I always figured a ball and a half for the break,you say 2.Close enough.The diamond system is predicated on running english,medium speed which is why you cant always use it.There is a lot of wisdom in your calculations but more in what you haven't said.Thanks for the double -spacing,you are a pro and I always appreciate your words here.Cheers my friend,Bob

Thanks Bob now days its not very easy for some toosay that they appriciate what was said. THanks a lot.

Its people like you that give me a reason too continue. And I feel your sencerite.

And I am also happy that you opened up your mind and seen. Rules and laws could stay the same forever.

Because people real dont look at what the law or rule are or what they are made for. And the people get screwed by them.

The reason I say it is because I was one off those people who got screwed.by the ellegele law they made.

You would be a good man too have in the jury. On my trial. But that wont happen. And you are not like some people who always have thier gun out ready too shoot. Or attack. Thanks for being a Human being.

.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

REALLY??????????????????????

If me beliving in what I say and you call it stubarn? Why do you call me stubarn. What is stuburn about waht I say.

I think that is what you are refering too. I will debate what I say and belive. And if the truth is stubern or whatever you want too call it.

And the truth is I am not stubrn at all. And I happen to be a very good listner. You have the wrong person.

And in all the games I have played my whole life dont you think I would have gotten in a argument in one off my pool games. Because I no Stubern people love too argue.

And if someone realy doesnt no the person. The shouldnt judge them or talk down too them. Because the belive in thier opinion and dont give in to the other person or what they want him to say or belive.

That is what you call stubern. Me sticking with what I belive and is true. You need too look and see why you call someone stubarn whith out giving the answer Why you said I am stubern.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

If me beliving in what I say and you call it stubarn? Why do you call me stubarn. What is stuburn about waht I say.

I think that is what you are refering too. I will debate what I say and belive. And if the truth is stubern or whatever you want too call it.

And the truth is I am not stubrn at all. And I happen to be a very good listner. You have the wrong person.

And in all the games I have played my whole life dont you think I would have gotten in a argument in one off my pool games. Because I no Stubern people love too argue.

And if someone realy doesnt no the person. The shouldnt judge them or talk down too them. Because the belive in thier opinion and dont give in to the other person or what they want him to say or belive.

That is what you call stubern. Me sticking with what I belive and is true. You need too look and see why you call someone stubarn whith out giving the answer Why you said I am stubern.

And when this all started about what a scratch was worth I replyied on a post. And the free scratch changed too something else and then it got called a free foul .

And As I remember it was not on mt trend that Billy said a scratch was worth like two balls and he realy didnt no is what he said.

And some people said it was 2and a half balls and some people said it was worth nothing.

Then they started it being used in different situations in the game. And I keepte repething it over and over. THe beginning off the game.

But some people didnt want to her it or get pined down too having too answer the qouistion at the beginning off the game.

And what they yhough it was worth. And the twisted and turned it around and never answered my.qouistions.




Her is one qouistion for everyone. Howe many balls off Gabs balls = one off Daves balls.

And For Goasts Qouistion. When I played partners with Billy against John I shot my shots and Billy shot his shots.

We play different shots and we also think a lot different. And I would not play Billys shots or style and he would not shot my shots or my style.

I dont have anything against the way Billy plays one pocket. He plays the game the way all the great players play.

And the most talanted player will win playing people who play that style. I am the lone solder because nobody plays my style.

Billy loves too shot and my way off playing will only aggrevate him if he has too play the way I do. Billy loves too make balls and run out.

It is different from what other people play. And my thinking is way different too. Thats because people dont no it and dont understand it.

But IF I cant make a ball its hard for people too belive that some one played that good. But the real great players no and they never qouistioned my answers or chalanged my knowledge or what I said.

I wish Bugs Lefty Shorty Joey Spath
Cornbread Red Chriss Mageean. Gorge Brunt was still around and they would tell you what I am saying is the truth. BUt how so you prove something when you cant shoot any moore.

Its very hard. And I no I am over the hill but not my knowledge. THat will alays be and stay number one. Untill someone proves different.

When I was at the cue club. I offered the knowledge bet too Tobby And Hopkins. BUt nobody wanted to take the bet.

And Tobby and Hopkins are in the top 15 or the top ten in one pocket knowledge. THey are very one pocket smart.

And I overed the bet too the world. Do you think its a axccedent that nobody has taken my bet. Or do you think they no they cant win?

And If I belived that I new more then another person. I would have to find a backer. And take that bet and see if they no more.

And If I was getting backet the worst I could do is learn something new.
.

Dock I posted a buch on what Qouistions you asked. I dont no what happened. But If you like just but the qouistions up her again And I will answer them.

Sorry I dont no what happened. I do not read all the posts and replies. So I will miss some. But I will answer them again. John Henderson If Billy and I coach each other and you shoot inbetween us in a partner game. You would have toogive us 9 to 8. Let me no what you think.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

If me beliving in what I say and you call it stubarn? Why do you call me stubarn. What is stuburn about waht I say.

I think that is what you are refering too. I will debate what I say and belive. And if the truth is stubern or whatever you want too call it.

And the truth is I am not stubrn at all. And I happen to be a very good listner. You have the wrong person.

And in all the games I have played my whole life dont you think I would have gotten in a argument in one off my pool games. Because I no Stubern people love too argue.

And if someone realy doesnt no the person. The shouldnt judge them or talk down too them. Because the belive in thier opinion and dont give in to the other person or what they want him to say or belive.

That is what you call stubern. Me sticking with what I belive and is true. You need too look and see why you call someone stubarn whith out giving the answer Why you said I am stubern.

And when this all started about what a scratch was worth I replyied on a post. And the free scratch changed too something else and then it got called a free foul .

And As I remember it was not on mt trend that Billy said a scratch was worth like two balls and he realy didnt no is what he said.

And some people said it was 2and a half balls and some people said it was worth nothing.

Then they started it being used in different situations in the game. And I keepte repething it over and over. THe beginning off the game.

But some people didnt want to her it or get pined down too having too answer the qouistion at the beginning off the game.

And what they yhough it was worth. And the twisted and turned it around and never answered my.qouistions.




Her is one qouistion for everyone. Howe many balls off Gabs balls = one off Daves balls.

And For Goasts Qouistion. When I played partners with Billy against John I shot my shots and Billy shot his shots.

We play different shots and we also think a lot different. And I would not play Billys shots or style and he would not shot my shots or my style.

I dont have anything against the way Billy plays one pocket. He plays the game the way all the great players play.

And the most talanted player will win playing people who play that style. I am the lone solder because nobody plays my style.

Billy loves too shot and my way off playing will only aggrevate him if he has too play the way I do. Billy loves too make balls and run out.

It is different from what other people play. And my thinking is way different too. Thats because people dont no it and dont understand it.

But IF I cant make a ball its hard for people too belive that some one played that good. But the real great players no and they never qouistioned my answers or chalanged my knowledge or what I said.

I wish Bugs Lefty Shorty Joey Spath
Cornbread Red Chriss Mageean. Gorge Brunt was still around and they would tell you what I am saying is the truth. BUt how so you prove something when you cant shoot any moore.

Its very hard. And I no I am over the hill but not my knowledge. THat will alays be and stay number one. Untill someone proves different.

When I was at the cue club. I offered the knowledge bet too Tobby And Hopkins. BUt nobody wanted to take the bet.

And Tobby and Hopkins are in the top 15 or the top ten in one pocket knowledge. THey are very one pocket smart.

And I overed the bet too the world. Do you think its a axccedent that nobody has taken my bet. Or do you think they no they cant win?

And If I belived that I new more then another person. I would have to find a backer. And take that bet and see if they no more.

And If I was getting backet the worst I could do is learn something new.
.

Dock I posted a buch on what Qouistions you asked. I dont no what happened. But If you like just but the qouistions up her again And I will answer them.

Sorry I dont no what happened. I do not read all the posts and replies. So I will miss some. But I will answer them again. John Henderson If Billy and I coach each other and you shoot inbetween us in a partner game. You would have toogive us 9 to 8. Let me no what you think.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

If me beliving in what I say and you call it stubarn? Why do you call me stubarn. What is stuburn about waht I say.

I think that is what you are refering too. I will debate what I say and belive. And if the truth is stubern or whatever you want too call it.

And the truth is I am not stubrn at all. And I happen to be a very good listner. You have the wrong person.

And in all the games I have played my whole life dont you think I would have gotten in a argument in one off my pool games. Because I no Stubern people love too argue.

And if someone realy doesnt no the person. The shouldnt judge them or talk down too them. Because the belive in thier opinion and dont give in to the other person or what they want him to say or belive.

That is what you call stubern. Me sticking with what I belive and is true. You need too look and see why you call someone stubarn whith out giving the answer Why you said I am stubern.

THis is for the person who called me stubern.

 

[SJDinPHX]

THis is for the person who called me stubern.

Artie,

I don't want to stir this up, or rat on anybody...but two people called you stubborn,...... DOC and GOAST !!!..

PS..Also, FRED called you a "slatehead".. (more than once)..

View attachment 1877
I'm so ashamed...

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Artie,

I don't want to stir this up, or rat on anybody...but two people called you stubborn,...... DOC and GOAST !!!..

No, that's a lie - I never called Artie stubborn...Papie, please put the bottle down now, and go to sleep...

- Goast

 

[SJDinPHX]

No, that's a lie - I never called Artie stubborn...Papie, please put the bottle down now, and go to sleep...

- Goast

Sorry !...It must have been in a PM...I should not have made it public...

Shamed again !!!