The Real Price off a Free Scratch

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Dear "contrarian" Breath,

No less a player than Jack Cooney told John McCue that he'd rather give up 9-7 than 10-8 because the two balls spotted by him in the 10-8 game tie up the table more often than not and prevent him from running more balls.

I believe that John is still trying to figure out the logic in that little idea. It seems counter-intuitive that 9-7 would help you win more than giving up 10-8 would but that's what Jack said.

Dennis

You Doorknob,

The only way I can see Jack saying something like that, is if he were using "reverse phsycology", ...and trying to get a sucker to insist on giving him 10/8, rather than giving him 9/7.

Jack was smooth, and it might have actually worked..............................but only in Hamtramck..:p :p :p
 
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Artie Bodendorfer

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Skin said:
Good questions, Larry. Here is an analogous question:

What would a free out be worth in a baseball game? Not an extra out, but a free safe call on an out.

Skin
Thats very Good Skin. What you said makes a lot off sense. I said the same thing in a different way.

I said how can someone say what I am saying is incorrect. If the math matches each other.

And the percentage is always correct.

How can they say what I am saying is not correct.

Whats incorrect is that they donr no the answer. And I would not say something is not correct UNLESS I NEW THE ASWER. How can someone say its not correct if they dont have the correct answer?

I use to think that way I guess when I was younger. But too say something is incorrect without having the answer.

I myself would be a little discreat and hold off tell I get the correct answer. The only way a person should say that what someone else says is not correct. Should have the correct amswer.

Thats how this game is played. I think its a fair rule too. If you dont have the correct aswer it is not helping anyone that is learning and wants too learn.

Skin you can reply any time on any off my posts. And so can everyone else. Your not High Jacking anything any way.

All that everyone is doing is talking. I got over all off that when I was younger. And I use to her kids say thats my toy. I guess high jacking is a control problem. I dont even think about it.

Because I dont do it intentonale. But at least I learned what it means. Not fully but I have a better understanding. I dont come on her too jerk people off. What I say or post. Is what I no and have learned and experenced.

And my win percentage was real high. So I think I no what I am talking about and what works. And doesnt work. And I also said that I can improve everyones game bt 10% or more. Even the champions. And I dont have a real big reputation. And thier are not a lot off people who now me.

Thats because I didnt go too all those pool tournamets. Like most off the players. And thats how they got known. Going to the tournamets and thats how people foun out who they were.

Without the pool tournamets not too many people would have known them. Even today.if it wasant for the pool tournemets the player would not have been nown.

And playing in front off croweds and the publicity and the magaziens. Thats howe the got known. And if it were not for the tournemts you could cut the players down too 15 or 20 percent.

But tournemets are good. I hope one day that TV. Will pay the players for putting them on TV. Like in the other sports.

And the pool players are getting short change. They should get paud for thier performance. Just like every other sport. But its going upwards.

And who knowes maybe one day they will pay big money to watch them play on TV. I know pool players work harder then most athlets.

And they play night and day. And they desirve to get paid for thier time and hard work. Because they desirve it thats why TV should pay them. But thats it My pillow is calling me. Have a great week end. And what I tell myself if I dont like lisning to someone I turn off the sound. Or listen too myself. Its hard too get mad at yourself.

And tommarrow is another day. Every day we can start fresh. We all need to take care off the world. We all live in it. Guta Nocht thats low German for good night. Guten Aboned is high german.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Skin said:
I did, Rod, in "Question for Billy I" post #23. ;)

http://onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=56562&postcount=23

But...I have since changed my opinion of the value of the one free scratch spot and do not think it is as high as 2-3 balls (see my post above).

Skin
Its not a small If a player is spotting someone 18 to 4 that is not small. And in compairison. One ball from the week player id = to 4 and a half balls off the good player. That is not too small.

That is the correct percentage off both numbers. And cannot be changed thje correct petrcentagefor both number off balls will always be the same.


Just divide 4 into 18 and if the aswer is correct it will always come out the same. And if you can brack the spot down to percentages then youn will get the exact Percentage.

And that will showe it a lot clearer THe correct percentages. I do not no howe too do that. But maybe someone on this site knowes how to do it. And show everyone how to figure out the correct percentage. But I wish I could do it but I dont no howe.

The track record is that one off Daves balls is worth 4 and balls off Gabs balls.. I dont no what you are talking about. If Dave scratches with no fouls its worth 4 and a half balls to Gab.

If Gab would say too dave I will play you a longer game with the same percentage off the spot. From 18 to4 to 27 to 6 has the same percentage as 18 to 4.

Her is a qouistion if we are talking about a scratch only Daves Scratch And Gabs scratch.

What is Gabs scratch worth copaired to Daves scratch. Scratch too scratch. Nothing else. No free scratch either.

What is Gabs scratch worth to Daves scratch. This is very easy. Becarefull. You could trap yourself her? What is the answer?????????
 

fred bentivegna

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Another example of your nastiness...

Another example of your nastiness...

SJDinPHX said:
If I had someone I could easily play 10/7, the difference in how the balls owed were spotted, would be of VERY little significance...it is certainly NOT "tremendous"...It can hurt you, or help you, when it actually occurs....Let the weaker player have it either way,...he probably won't know the difference anyway...If you don't win "either way"...you must have a bad game to begin with..:cool:

Sand Duck <---Always came to play, not to argue meaningless semantics with my "pigeon du jour"...:eek:

You are so obsessed with trying to out-penis me that you are willing to spread bad info to our members. To start with, you convoluted and perverted, my original point. Who said anything about "easily" playing someone 10/7. I matched up to the exact line most of the time.

I made a strong point and I gave our guys some strong advice. That you would deliberately mislead our members just to oppose me is unspeakable. If your intent wasn't to mislead, then the only other explanation is that you are a complete 1pkt dunce when it comes to strategy.
I explained exactly why it was so much stronger to spot 2 rather than one, and your counter-reasoning is laughable. "Sometimes its good and sometimes its bad," "Won't know the difference.." What a puce argument.
That all just tells me that you were never nothing but a shooter.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Only 30 years...

Only 30 years...

Cowboy Dennis said:
I calculate that out to be a .000000000492784 of a ball advantage per game for you Freddy. On your break it figures to be a .000000000492796 of a ball for you, you long-fingered devil:p Great idea!!!:D .

P.S. They must've been complete morons to let you do this.

Cowboy "calculating whiz" Dennis


... worth of morons. That's how many years and uncountable morons that allowed me to play them that way.

Beard

Incidentally, if the advantage is nil then why are they morons? Do yourself a favor and pay attn when I give out these little hustling/strategy/gamemaking tidbits.
 

fred bentivegna

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In the Bizarro world

In the Bizarro world

Cowboy Dennis said:
Dear "contrarian" Breath,

No less a player than Jack Cooney told John McCue that he'd rather give up 9-7 than 10-8 because the two balls spotted by him in the 10-8 game tie up the table more often than not and prevent him from running more balls.

I believe that John is still trying to figure out the logic in that little idea. It seems counter-intuitive that 9-7 would help you win more than giving up 10-8 would but that's what Jack said.

Dennis

That logic is so brutal that I am going to call Jack today to verify that insanity. I cant think of a single logical reason why 9 to 7 is a better game to give out than 10 to 8. I think Jack was talking about Alternate Universe matchups.


Beard

Plus, I still dont understand if you are agreeing with me or DuckDick Breath about spotting 2 or 1 in a 10/7 game?
 

fred bentivegna

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Now you understand...

Now you understand...

stevelomako said:
Fred, now I see why its tough on you to deal with them most of the time.

Uhhh, fellas, if he spots 2 balls and the game comes down to each of them needing one ball, how many are still on the table???

To help you out, there are two balls left and if you each need one the better player might, just might, have the best of that.


....What I have to deal with.

I get the feeling that I am wasting my breath, but ok I'll keep trying. Here is one more small argument for the spot 2 scenario: I have just ran some balls and am now out of shots. I am now going to perhaps make a move, but for sure, try and play safe. How much more of the table is available for me to play safe if I spot up 2 balls rather than 1? Or putting it another way, how much more of the table is unsafe if I only spot up 1 ball?

This aint Tensor Calculus fellas.

Beard
 

androd

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fred bentivegna said:
....What I have to deal with.

I get the feeling that I am wasting my breath, but ok I'll keep trying. Here is one more small argument for the spot 2 scenario: I have just ran some balls and am now out of shots. I am now going to perhaps make a move, but for sure, try and play safe. How much more of the table is available for me to play safe if I spot up 2 balls rather than 1? Or putting it another way, how much more of the table is unsafe if I only spot up 1 ball?

This aint Tensor Calculus fellas.

Beard

Freddy, I know this'll mean nothing to you.
I wholeheartedly agree with all you've said about this subject. ;)
Rod.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Fred bentivegna said:
That logic is so brutal that I am going to call Jack today to verify that insanity. I cant think of a single logical reason why 9 to 7 is a better game to give out than 10 to 8. I think Jack was talking about Alternate Universe matchups.


Beard

Plus, I still dont understand if you are agreeing with me or DuckDick Breath about spotting 2 or 1 in a 10/7 game?
You go right ahead and call Jack. I heard him say it to John, and it was in Livonia, Mich., not Hamtramck like the Duck thinks. Maybe Jack said it for the benefit of someone nearby, I don't know about that, but I remember clearly John & I discussing it and how it made no sense to us.

Regarding the spotting of 2 balls by you in the 10-7 game, I noticed in your last post that you didn't know whether or not I got "it". It's an advantage that's surprising to me that so many players for so long let you get away with. It's not an "infinitesimal" advantage in a dead-even game either. It could be the tipping point in a long match that's very close. I WAS however joking about the percent of a ball advantage that I computed, I thought that was obvious but things do come out different in print(you may be over-paranoid from the Duck's needling). It's not a huge advantage but it's not inconsequential either.

I stand by my statement that they were morons to let you do that. If you were playing me and did that I would remind you when you got to 8 that you still needed one more ball. If you argued that you had already spotted two balls I would tell you that that's your problem if you want to spot balls but you still need 9 in a 10-7 game. That way it wouldn't happen twice:cool: .

Dennis
 

fred bentivegna

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It means a lot...

It means a lot...

androd said:
Freddy, I know this'll mean nothing to you.
I wholeheartedly agree with all you've said about this subject. ;)
Rod.

... Thank you, Rodney. It lets me know that I aint spitting in the wind.

Beard

But to take one more pop at DuckDickHead, I tried applying flawless logic but there is an old saying, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
 

fred bentivegna

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I always stipulated...

I always stipulated...

Cowboy Dennis said:
You go right ahead and call Jack. I heard him say it to John, and it was in Livonia, Mich., not Hamtramck like the Duck thinks. Maybe Jack said it for the benefit of someone nearby, I don't know about that, but I remember clearly John & I discussing it and how it made no sense to us.

Regarding the spotting of 2 balls by you in the 10-7 game, I noticed in your last post that you didn't know whether or not I got "it". It's an advantage that's surprising to me that so many players for so long let you get away with. It's not an "infinitesimal" advantage in a dead-even game either. It could be the tipping point in a long match that's very close. I WAS however joking about the percent of a ball advantage that I computed, I thought that was obvious but things do come out different in print(you may be over-paranoid from the Duck's needling). It's not a huge advantage but it's not inconsequential either.

I stand by my statement that they were morons to let you do that. If you were playing me and did that I would remind you when you got to 8 that you still needed one more ball. If you argued that you had already spotted two balls I would tell you that that's your problem if you want to spot balls but you still need 9 in a 10-7 game. That way it wouldn't happen twice:cool: .

Dennis

I always stipulated before we began that I would spot up two and go to eight. Just like I always mentioned the 3 scratches in a row lose the game rule, behind the line or base of the ball, and if I was spotting someone the break they would have to switch pockets. I learned from playing in so many bad joints that the rules must be established early to avoid later problems.

Beard

And yes, my paranoia level is well up there, especially when I think that someone might actually be taking his twaddle and pap nonsense seriously.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
I always stipulated before we began that I would spot up two and go to eight. Just like I always mentioned the 3 scratches in a row lose the game rule, behind the line or base of the ball, and if I was spotting someone the break they would have to switch pockets. I learned from playing in so many bad joints that the rules must be established early to avoid later problems.

Beard

And yes, my paranoia level is well up there, especially when I think that someone might actually be taking his twaddle and pap nonsense seriously.
Well, if you stipulated beforehand that's a horse of a different color:p .

P.S. I pretty much know what's what on a pool table, nobody can get me to think anything that's not correct, unless it's cute girl with a big butt, then I think you're wrong and none of you know anything if that's what she tells me:D .

Dennis
 

bstroud

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One thing about the free scratch that has not be mentioned is the fact that a weak player ofter chooses the wrong time to take one. In my experience weak players often take a scratch for a sure safety and give up the opportunity to take a small risk for a more aggressive shot.

I know the hardest weak players to spot and beat were always the ones that shot at everything. Giving an aggressive weak player 8 to 4 was always tough.

Billy Stroud
 

wincardona

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lll said:
for those that say you cant predict the weight of a free scratch before the break and before a series of games is played.
how can you say a hit and a pick is worth 2 balls when you dont know what kind of hit or what picks will be made.??
how did it come to be the break was worth 1 1/2 to 2 balls???
artie im not trying to hijack the thread . i think this is relevant to your question
Larry,
this is an excellent question and I will try to explain how these things (spots)are evaluated.

Basically we have 2 kinds of spots ....intangeable spots...,and single ball spots..

.INTANGEABLE SPOTS: like Giving up the break, or two hit and the pick. or a free push (free scratch) scratches don't count, two and stop,ect.ect. GET IT? These types of spots (handicapps) are evaluated by playing them a countless number of times and sharing information with other players who have played them and get their FEEL on how much they think their worth.

That's why, even today we really can't put a true ball value on the strength of the break, or two hit and the pick, or scratches don't count, or two and stop. or even one free push, believe it or not. All of the above spots, and there are many more that haven't been discussed, all carry that blanket of intangeable, sprinkled with discretionary decisions that keeps everything clouded to the point that it's still not clear what they are worth.

SINGLE BALL SPOTS : Like 8 to7, or 10 to 8, 10 to 7, 18 to 4, or any spot that it is not clouded with something that would preclude you from understanding that there is an advantage, and who has it. Plus it's much easier to renegotiate something that is obvious to the eye, and pocket.;)

Word of advice. In all intangeable spots, always refer to a proposition man like Jack Cooney, or the Freddies, and Rodney's of the world to get their opinion before getting involved. After all it's all discretionary.;)

Trust me, i'm a doctor.

Billy I.
 
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wincardona

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lll said:
for those that say you cant predict the weight of a free scratch before the break and before a series of games is played.
how can you say a hit and a pick is worth 2 balls when you dont know what kind of hit or what picks will be made.??
how did it come to be the break was worth 1 1/2 to 2 balls???
artie im not trying to hijack the thread . i think this is relevant to your question
Larry,
this is an excellent question and I will try to explain how these things (spots)are evaluated.

Basically we have 2 kinds of spots ....intangeable spots...,and single ball spots..

.INTANGEABLE SPOTS: like Giving up the break, or two hit and the pick.or a free push (free scratch)scratches don't count, two and stop,ect.ect. GET IT? These types of spots (handicapps) are evaluated by playing them a countless number of times and sharing information with other players who have played them and get their FEEL on how much they think their worth.

That's why, even today we really can't put a true ball value on the strength of the break, or two hit and the pick, or scratches don't count,or two and stop.or even one free push, believe it or not. All of the above spots, and there are many more that haven't been discussed, all carry that blanket of intangeable, sprinkled with discretionary decisions that keeps everything clouded to the point that it's still not clear what they are worth.

SINGLE BALL SPOTS : Like 8 to7, or 10 to 8, 10 to 7, 18 to 4, or any spot that it is not clouded with something that would preclude you from understanding that there is an advantage, where it is, and who has it. Plus it's much easier to renegotiate something that is obvious to the eye, and pocket.;)

Word of advice. In all intangeable spots, always refer to a proposition man like Jack Cooney, or the Freddies,and Rodney's of the world to get their opinion before getting involved. After all it's all discretionary.;)

Trust me, i'm a doctor.

Billy I.
 
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wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Double-Posting. That's the 3rd sign:p :eek: .
I guess you're right, but at least someone smewhere is benefiting, I hope, so far I have my doubts :confused: ( Maybe you're right and I am getting too old.:(

Billy I.
 

androd

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One other thought that I haven't posted. All the people that posted the free scratch taken at the opportune time would win the game. Well it would also win the game if they weren't getting that free scratch. (Or get really close)
So that may have no bearing on the spot. :p
Rod.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
( Maybe you're right and I am getting too old.:(

Billy I.
I didn't say or imply that you were getting too old, merely that you are 1/3 of the way to the 12 step plan in that direction:p . 9 more steps to go:eek: .

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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androd said:
One other thought that I haven't posted. All the people that posted the free scratch taken at the opportune time would win the game. Well it would also win the game if they weren't getting that free scratch. (Or get really close)
So that may have no bearing on the spot. :p
Rod.
Rod,

I have a question for you: Have you been drinking tequila tonight???:)

Cowboy "Jameson Drinker" Dennis
 
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