The Real Price off a Free Scratch

lll

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Skin said:
Good questions, Larry. Here is an analogous question:

What would a free out be worth in a baseball game? Not an extra out, but a free safe call on an out.

Skin
skin good analogy :) but lets keep this as much on track as possible so we are not accused of digressing too far and getting off track
 

usblues

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Facts

Facts

I'm not trying to jack this either 111,but you got me to thinking which is dangerous to guys like us BUT.I think someone tried to fill a philosophical hole with facts and I dont know if thats possible.Mayhaps someone will let us know,cheers,B
 

androd

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Skin said:
Good questions, Larry. Here is an analogous question:

What would a free out be worth in a baseball game? Not an extra out, but a free safe call on an out.

Skin

It would be hard to decide when to use it, but when the situation arose you'd recognize it immediately.:D :p
Rod.
 

Skin

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lll said:
skin...lets keep this as much on track as possible so we are not accused of digressing too far and getting off track

Larry, we will have to figure the percentages of whether going off track will hurt or help us as posters before we decide. Me? I figure doing it is an infinitesimally small disadvantage, and I have data on a large number of previous posts from previous threads to back me up! ;)

Skin
 

One Pocket Ghost

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wincardona said:
The type of free scratch we're talking about here is intangible.

If someone can explain to me how you put a ball value on that I would like to hear it. I'm saying that there isn't a way to place a ball value on something that has 100,000's differen't possible scenarios. And not only that they are discretional decisions that Dippie is making. He actually could be taking his free scratch when he has a better choice with a legal shot. Who's to say that his decision is worth 1,2,3,or even 4 balls? It may not be worth anything, true?

Billy I.


cuesmith said:
I think I'd have to agree with what Billy said here. The value of a free scratch is a hard thing to quantify. There are so many factors that you can't even begin to consider all the possibilities. In some games it means nothing and others it could mean the game. Also the different players involved, their shooting styles and strengths and weaknesses all would be involved to a point that trying to give it a "ball value" would be nothing more than a guess, maybe an educated guess, but a guess all the same.



Yes, thank you for mentioning your agreement with me..:rolleyes:...all of this is exactly what I already said in my posts last night...as in post #47 of this thread >>>

One Pocket Ghost said:
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis......What you don't realize, is that I've already considered and rejected what you'all are saying - for not being feasible....My more intelligent and realistic point being, that there is not enough data available re. this scratch-spot scenario, to make it possible to use probability theory to come up with a valid analysis of what the spot is worth - a guess, is all that's possible....:cool:

- Ghost

PS, And now I'm off to Red Shoes - Zaksas is waiting for me...have a good day fellas...:)
 

androd

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lll said:
id say that the player going to 4 has more difficulty making balls than the player that has to go to 8 (lets say a 20-8 spot)
so one ball means more to the player that needs less balls to win.
1/4 =%25
1/8=%12.5
that is how i see the difference of the free scratch.
how many balls is that worth to the spotter/spottee
p.s. thanks to rod for pointing out this way to look at it:)

Larry, this is also what Artie said somewhere in earlier posts. He said the better player should have too spot more than one ball per scratch when giving a large spot.
Rod. <-------at least that's what I think he said.
 

lll

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androd said:
Larry, this is also what Artie said somewhere in earlier posts. He said the better player should have too spot more than one ball per scratch when giving a large spot.
Rod. <-------at least that's what I think he said.
Rod yes artie did say that.
but my statement above is not about the evening out the value of a scratch between the better and lesser player(ie better player spots 3 balls lesser player spots 1)
but whats the value of free scratch to the lesser player.
its like saying we play 9/7 on my break and even on your break
weplay 18-4 free scratch and we play ???? no freescratch


the answer to the ??? would be diferrent if the spot was 10/5 . 16/8 20/10 or 8/4 even tho according to artie all those scenarios would be worth 2 balls
is that right artie??
 

stevelomako

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SJDinPHX said:
Steve,

I know you didn't ask me, but I think the "Odds Couple" (BI and AB) may have nodded off...Not that it really matters, but was this match recent, or some time ago ?

If Cliff couldn't win getting 8/7....I would think he would have even more the worst of a 12/10 or 13/11 match-up. I would really be surprised if Efren didn't jump at it...I've always considered 10/8 and 8/7 fairly close to the same thing, between two good players. (10/8 being maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of a ball better for the weaker player)

The weaker one of the two (Cliff in this case) would be in big trouble escalating his needing 3 or 4 more balls....And Effy only needing two more.
than Cliff...JMHO...(Hope no one considers this a knock)..:eek:

They were always playing at DCC like Steve B mentioned.

The thing for me was Cliff could run some balls like Scott does now but he would take alot of scratches to keep Efren from a shot where he wouldn't have to if Efren was going to a higher number. Efren runs 8 alot easier than 10,11,12 or 13.

Its more mental than anything maybe and when I first told Cliff he didn't think it was good till I explained everything to him....then he liked it alot.

Guys on Efrens side were asked....the game didn't happen so what do you think they said?


A decent player played Paul Bruesloff at my place giving him 11-8 and lost.

I then staked him giving Paul 10-7 and he won!

It doesn't make sense but at 11-8 I could see that him spotting the 3 balls kept bugging him, he'd run 3 or 4 then spot what he owed and he acted like he didn't have any instead of that he was now playing Paul even.

At the 10-7 he was only spotting one but he felt like he had balls now even though the count was the same as in the other game. He'd run 3 then spot the one he owed and have two in his hole. They were playing even at that point like in the other game but he felt like he was ahead because he had a couple of balls to look at in his hole.


Like I said it doesn't make sense but it worked and with Cliffs' firepower even he knew he would run more balls than Efren more often if he didn't have to keep him on 7.

Cliff likes to shoot and shoot often but Efren just punished him when he missed. They were still close sets and they were both playing jam up, nobody else took only a ball from Efren in the last 10 years till just recently.

We would have liked to have seen the game but it didn't come off so it's all spectulation now but I firmly believe Cliff had way the best of it that way plus he knew we were behind him and mentally who knows what that was worth to him. Some people play better for others.
 

stevelomako

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NH Steve said:
The only thing I wonder about this is, who do you think has the advantage maneuvering around the stack? Going to such high ball counts, is going to prolong the opening down table game that revolves around the stack, right?

When Cliff was playing his best a few years ago before he developed that big hitch in his stroke, there was nothing better than watching the two of them -- Efren & Cliff duke it out. They may have both been at the peak of their game. Those were my top DCC highlights for sure! I've seen a lot of entertaining stuff over the years there, but that was the best for pure top One Pocket epic matches.

It was sweet wasn't it?

Quite a few people liked watching them didn't they?
 

fred bentivegna

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10 to 7 spot two

10 to 7 spot two

stevelomako said:
...A decent player played Paul Bruesloff at my place giving him 11-8 and lost.

I then staked him giving Paul 10-7 and he won!

It doesn't make sense but at 11-8 I could see that him spotting the 3 balls kept bugging him, he'd run 3 or 4 then spot what he owed and he acted like he didn't have any instead of that he was now playing Paul even.

At the 10-7 he was only spotting one but he felt like he had balls now even though the count was the same as in the other game. He'd run 3 then spot the one he owed and have two in his hole. They were playing even at that point like in the other game but he felt like he was ahead because he had a couple of balls to look at in his hole....

Funny you mention that. When I hung around the Rack in Detroit 70s, 80s, I had a whole passel of shortstop customers that I played 10 to 7. But there was one thing I always insisted on, and that was spotting up two balls and going to 8. Usually nobody even noticed that I could have only spotted up one. If they insisted I only spot up one, then there was no game. The difference between spotting one or two was tremendous. Aside from the fact that you can keep more balls in play to run, many times the two ball spot works out to be a trap or at minimum a blocker, for your oppo.

Beard
 

t-dog

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fred bentivegna said:
Funny you mention that. When I hung around the Rack in Detroit 70s, 80s, I had a whole passel of shortstop customers that I played 10 to 7. But there was one thing I always insisted on, and that was spotting up two balls and going to 8. Usually nobody even noticed that I could have only spotted up one. If they insisted I only spot up one, then there was no game. The difference between spotting one or two was tremendous. Aside from the fact that you can keep more balls in play to run, many times the two ball spot works out to be a trap or at minimum a blocker, for your oppo.

Beard


Thats a nice nugget of information. Thanks
 

SJDinPHX

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Nol contendre !!!

Nol contendre !!!

fred bentivegna said:
Funny you mention that. When I hung around the Rack in Detroit 70s, 80s, I had a whole passel of shortstop customers that I played 10 to 7. But there was one thing I always insisted on, and that was spotting up two balls and going to 8. Usually nobody even noticed that I could have only spotted up one. If they insisted I only spot up one, then there was no game. The difference between spotting one or two was tremendous. Aside from the fact that you can keep more balls in play to run, many times the two ball spot works out to be a trap or at minimum a blocker, for your oppo.

Beard

If I had someone I could easily play 10/7, the difference in how the balls owed were spotted, would be of VERY little significance...it is certainly NOT "tremendous"...It can hurt you, or help you, when it actually occurs....Let the weaker player have it either way,...he probably won't know the difference anyway...If you don't win "either way"...you must have a bad game to begin with..:cool:

Sand Duck <---Always came to play, not to argue meaningless semantics with my "pigeon du jour"...:eek:
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
Funny you mention that. When I hung around the Rack in Detroit 70s, 80s, I had a whole passel of shortstop customers that I played 10 to 7. But there was one thing I always insisted on, and that was spotting up two balls and going to 8. Usually nobody even noticed that I could have only spotted up one. If they insisted I only spot up one, then there was no game. The difference between spotting one or two was tremendous. Aside from the fact that you can keep more balls in play to run, many times the two ball spot works out to be a trap or at minimum a blocker, for your oppo.

Beard
I calculate that out to be a .000000000492784 of a ball advantage per game for you Freddy. On your break it figures to be a .000000000492796 of a ball for you, you long-fingered devil:p Great idea!!!:D .

P.S. They must've been complete morons to let you do this.

Cowboy "calculating whiz" Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
If I had someone I could easily play 10/7, the difference in how the balls owed were spotted, would be of VERY little significance...it is certainly NOT "tremendous"...It is can hurt you, or help you, when it actually occurs....Let the weaker player have it either way,...he probably won't know the difference anyway...If you don't win "either way"...you must have a bad game to begin with..:cool:

Sand Duck <---Always came to play, not to argue meaningless semantics with my "pigeon du jour"...:eek:
Dear "contrarian" Breath,

No less a player than Jack Cooney told John McCue that he'd rather give up 9-7 than 10-8 because the two balls spotted by him in the 10-8 game tie up the table more often than not and prevent him from running more balls.

I believe that John is still trying to figure out the logic in that little idea. It seems counter-intuitive that 9-7 would help you win more than giving up 10-8 would but that's what Jack said.

Dennis
 

stevelomako

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fred bentivegna said:
Funny you mention that. When I hung around the Rack in Detroit 70s, 80s, I had a whole passel of shortstop customers that I played 10 to 7. But there was one thing I always insisted on, and that was spotting up two balls and going to 8. Usually nobody even noticed that I could have only spotted up one. If they insisted I only spot up one, then there was no game. The difference between spotting one or two was tremendous. Aside from the fact that you can keep more balls in play to run, many times the two ball spot works out to be a trap or at minimum a blocker, for your oppo.

Beard

Fred, now I see why its tough on you to deal with them most of the time.


Uhhh, fellas, if he spots 2 balls and the game comes down to each of them needing one ball, how many are still on the table???

To help you out, there are two balls left and if you each need one the better player might, just might, have the best of that.
 

lll

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if the spot was 10/5 . 16/8 20/10 or 8/4
according to artie all those scenarios the free scratch would be worth 2 balls
is that right artie??
 

NH Steve

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I know one thing, I am not arguing percentages with either Billy or Artie -- whether they agree with each other or not :D :D
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
if the spot was 10/5 . 16/8 20/10 or 8/4
according to artie all those scenarios the free scratch would be worth 2 balls
is that right artie??
Yes that is correct percentage wise and mathamatical correct. Yes that is correct because each game is two too one on balls.

If its the same players play each other in all those games. The 20 too 10 is the better game for the better player.

And 8 to 4 is a better game for the weeker player. Thats why the better players want to play a longer game.

Like 36 too 8 would be better then 18 to 4 for the better player. And the percentags on the scratches does not change. And if they are playing 2 to 1 the scratches are still the same.

And people are not use to hering that if a player gives you two to one. His scratches should also be two too one.

I have never come across anyone that new that. Because they have been bullshite. By people who made the rules and didnt no what they were doing.

The rules have said as long as I remember that a foul cost either player a ball. But thats way out off line for the week player. And I think you and everyone else can see it too.

But everyone has played under the old rules and excepted the rule. And you can see that the rule is out off line. And if a player plays a weeker player without giving him his scratches dont count. And they can both take as many scratches as they want or the make up a rule before the game and say nobody can take more then 10 scratches in a row.

And If the week player cant think too good he will not win. How can he win if he is playing you 10 too 10 if you both take 10 scratches in a row. And the player is giving you 20 to 4.

You have no chance because you should be getting 5 to one on your scratches. And everyone can see that. If a player is giving you two to one and you both sratch 5 times in a row.

He is playing you 7 to 6 instead off two too one. When I use to give out those kind off spots one scratch two scratches or all the scratches.

And I think it was nice off me too show this too pool players. And next time some one spots them 9 to 3 they will ask for his scratches should be 3 yo 1.

And if you play him even on the scratches and he gives you 9 to 3 on the balls. You should loose if thier are a lot off scratches. I will never know how players getting a big spot never said nothing and never woke up.

I never said nothing because the rule was way in my favor.



How can that even be close too fair when the player is spotting you two too one on balls? Have you ever herd about this before?

You no pool even thoug I dont really no you or how good you play? Because I have never seen you play.

Does the math make sense too you? And do you think it would be a good rule. And if its fair then it will be a good rule.

If a player playes you 20 too 4 his scratches are worth 5 to one.

Her is another part to a scratch. I have only told a few people. Is a free scratch better when you brack or when the other guy breacks. I will get wright too the point.

Because I dont like going through all this nonsense when I am trying too help people with one pocket. I guess I could even wright a hunded books. Because thier is a lot.

So her is the answer The free scratch is better when you brake. Because If you scratch on the breack it does not cost you a ball. And if you are playing 8 to 8 .

You might not collect your scratchat all. Now you might say what if the other player makes a real good breack. You might think thats a good time too take your scratch.

Yes it is but her is the key. You can take a intentanale scratch anyway. So your free scratch is not worth as much as it is when you scratch. And if he doest use the scratch. Now you have a edge.

And using the scratch on your breack and you break the balls good. And you run 7 balls. You can but him in a complete trap. But its better on your breack because off the scratch on the breack.

And The scratch is also more powerfull when you have the balls open by your pocket. And that figuers too happen on your break.

And if either one off you players run 8 and out. You wont even get too use it. But a scrach on the breack. Or if he puts you by your pocket after you breack. All you have too do is kick into the stack and he will be locket up.

And if he takes a intentainal scratch in the stack he is spotting you 9 to 8. And If you no some one that knowes howe too do probable math saloutions he will work out the problem. And give you the correct anser.

I am sure next time you watch a game and the player is getting 15 to 5 and the week player will take scratch for scratch with the better player. You will see how unfair the rule is. And you might even. Inlighten him.

But any time you watch a game with a big spot. Your mind will automatickly tell you. He is playing scratch for scratch.

Because you are awar off the scratch and what the good player should be paying on his scratch. But you will see mostly even games and those games will be scratch for scratch.

I hope you learned something. Because I dont want too think I did all off this for nothing and her myself talk. I did it too help people understand a little more about the game.

And its great that one pocket . org gets to be the first too use this rule and show all the other sites they need too change the handy cap rules On the value off a scratch. Its wrong its false and it is horrable for the week player.



Even if the week player is not getting a free scratch or his scratches dont count. THe handy cap Rule needs to change with a free scratch or not. If someone is spotting you 10 to 5 thier sctatches.

Should cost them 2 to 1. It is impossable that both off your scratches should be equal. When you are getting 2 to 1 on your balls. I realy hope that you can see how true this is.

But the rule has been used and abused unfairly since one pocket started. Weather you agree with what I have said or not.


YOU WILL BE AWARE OFF WHAT I SAID FROM NOW ON.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
if the spot was 10/5 . 16/8 20/10 or 8/4
according to artie all those scenarios the free scratch would be worth 2 balls
is that right artie??
Yes that is correct percentage wise and mathamatical correct. Yes that is correct because each game is two too one on balls.

If its the same players play each other in all those games. The 20 too 10 is the better game for the better player.

And 8 to 4 is a better game for the weeker player. Thats why the better players want to play a longer game.

Like 36 too 8 would be better then 18 to 4 for the better player. And the percentags on the scratches does not change. And if they are playing 2 to 1 the scratches are still the same.

And people are not use to hering that if a player gives you two to one. His scratches should also be two too one.

I have never come across anyone that new that. Because they have been bullshite. By people who made the rules and didnt no what they were doing.

The rules have said as long as I remember that a foul cost either player a ball. But thats way out off line for the week player. And I think you and everyone else can see it too.

But everyone has played under the old rules and excepted the rule. And you can see that the rule is out off line. And if a player plays a weeker player without giving him his scratches dont count. And they can both take as many scratches as they want or the make up a rule before the game and say nobody can take more then 10 scratches in a row.

And If the week player cant think too good he will not win. How can he win if he is playing you 10 too 10 if you both take 10 scratches in a row. And the player is giving you 20 to 4.

You have no chance because you should be getting 5 to one on your scratches. And everyone can see that. If a player is giving you two to one and you both sratch 5 times in a row.

He is playing you 7 to 6 instead off two too one. When I use to give out those kind off spots one scratch two scratches or all the scratches.

And I think it was nice off me too show this too pool players. And next time some one spots them 9 to 3 they will ask for his scratches should be 3 yo 1.

And if you play him even on the scratches and he gives you 9 to 3 on the balls. You should loose if thier are a lot off scratches. I will never know how players getting a big spot never said nothing and never woke up.

I never said nothing because the rule was way in my favor.



How can that even be close too fair when the player is spotting you two too one on balls? Have you ever herd about this before?

You no pool even thoug I dont really no you or how good you play? Because I have never seen you play.

Does the math make sense too you? And do you think it would be a good rule. And if its fair then it will be a good rule.

If a player playes you 20 too 4 his scratches are worth 5 to one.

Her is another part to a scratch. I have only told a few people. Is a free scratch better when you brack or when the other guy breacks. I will get wright too the point.

Because I dont like going through all this nonsense when I am trying too help people with one pocket. I guess I could even wright a hunded books. Because thier is a lot.

So her is the answer The free scratch is better when you brake. Because If you scratch on the breack it does not cost you a ball. And if you are playing 8 to 8 .

You might not collect your scratchat all. Now you might say what if the other player makes a real good breack. You might think thats a good time too take your scratch.

Yes it is but her is the key. You can take a intentanale scratch anyway. So your free scratch is not worth as much as it is when you scratch. And if he doest use the scratch. Now you have a edge.

And using the scratch on your breack and you break the balls good. And you run 7 balls. You can but him in a complete trap. But its better on your breack because off the scratch on the breack.

And The scratch is also more powerfull when you have the balls open by your pocket. And that figuers too happen on your break.

And if either one off you players run 8 and out. You wont even get too use it. But a scrach on the breack. Or if he puts you by your pocket after you breack. All you have too do is kick into the stack and he will be locket up.

And if he takes a intentainal scratch in the stack he is spotting you 9 to 8. And If you no some one that knowes howe too do probable math saloutions he will work out the problem. And give you the correct anser.

I am sure next time you watch a game and the player is getting 15 to 5 and the week player will take scratch for scratch with the better player. You will see how unfair the rule is. And you might even. Inlighten him.

But any time you watch a game with a big spot. Your mind will automatickly tell you. He is playing scratch for scratch.

Because you are awar off the scratch and what the good player should be paying on his scratch. But you will see mostly even games and those games will be scratch for scratch.

I hope you learned something. Because I dont want too think I did all off this for nothing and her myself talk. I did it too help people understand a little more about the game.

And its great that one pocket . org gets to be the first too use this rule and show all the other sites they need too change the handy cap rules On the value off a scratch. Its wrong its false and it is horrable for the week player.



Even if the week player is not getting a free scratch or his scratches dont count. THe handy cap Rule needs to change with a free scratch or not. If someone is spotting you 10 to 5 thier sctatches.

Should cost them 2 to 1. It is impossable that both off your scratches should be equal. When you are getting 2 to 1 on your balls. I realy hope that you can see how true this is.

But the rule has been used and abused unfairly since one pocket started. Weather you agree with what I have said or not.


YOU WILL BE AWARE OFF WHAT I SAID FROM NOW ON.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
for those that say you cant predict the weight of a free scratch before the break and before a series of games is played.
how can you say a hit and a pick is worth 2 balls when you dont know what kind of hit or what picks will be made.??
how did it come to be the break was worth 1 1/2 to 2 balls???
artie im not trying to hijack the thread . i think this is relevant to your question

Whatever hapines in the game. Has nothing too do With the value off scratch. Or how you use it.

And saying that thier are a zillion ways has nothing to do with the value off what its worth.

THe value off its worth is one thing. And the game another. Its all silly talk.

Its like saying what is a run and a half worth in baseball. Thier is a correct line for what the run is woth. And then I her someone say. They one sraight up without the run and a half. I didnt need the run and a half too win.

Well my answer is why did you pay for the run and a half. If you new you were going too win straight up .

You should havbe taken the money line instead off the run and a half. But the price off the run and a half has the same price on it from the beginning off the game.

Now that thier a score or 3 men on base with no outs. We all no the odds will change. But the price off the game with the run and a half does not change. Tell the game starts.

And then the 10000000 posabilities will come into play. But not before the game starts. And for those Tecknical people we no the odds can change on the run and a half. If a lot off money is bet one way. But the run and a half will still be arun and a half no matter witch way its bet. And we all no that the run and a half is a LOT STRONGER IN THE 9 INNING WITH A TIE GAMEOR EXTRA INNINGS.






If this does not change your mind then thats the way it will be.

Forget about the free scratch. If a player is spothing another player 21 to 3 . Forget about the free scratch. How much is one ball worth compaired too the good players balls. 7 to 1.

So If the week player sctatches it costs him one ball. If the good player scratches it costs him one ball. We all no thats wrong and out off line. But thats they way its been. From the begining. The cooect numder off balls that the good player should pay for a scratch is 7 to 1 .

I no you are uncoftrable with this because its new. And everyone is use too paying one ball for a scratch.Have any off you ever paid more then one ball for a scratch. Yes or No.The answer brobable is no.

Because its never been exposed or brought up. Why hasant anyone played this way. Because people are programed. And your mind has recorded the old rules. Weather you think is correct or not.

You will be fully aware next time some one plays someone 9 to 3 that its out off line. If they are playing scratch fot scratch. And we all no now that a player getting spotted 21 to 3.

And it costs him one ball for a scratch, And it cost the great player one ball when he scratches. Is way out off line. And belive me when you watch and bet on one off those games. You will say something. Or not bet on the side. Because you no now that its totaly out off line. And we dont need to use one free scratch.

And use it as a technacality. I no for sure that a scratch. is 7 to 1 on a scratch. Because its 100% correct. He is getting spotted 7 balls for every one off his balls. And if one off his balls is worth 7 off the other players balls. Then one ball is worth seven off the other players balls.

And the scratches should be paid accordingly. But the are not. So we dont have to go thier with a free scratch. And he might not use it. And I will give him yree free scratches for 21 balls.

Its all silly and away from what needs too be learned. I am positive that this is correct. And if you do the math on every game. The numbers will all come out to what the correct percentage that the good player should pay for his scratch. And the numbers will

ALL come out with the correct value of the scratch according to the spot given too the player in the game. And the numbers will always match and have the correct percentage off what the spot is.

And they will both CORALATE with each other. And the percentages and value off each ball will have the same percentage. This is no accedent. That the percentage will always be the same.

And you can do it. On both sides and see if they match. The game percentage and the scratch percentage for each ball should have equal value.
 
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