Spotting balls

LSJohn

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For What it's worth:

The 2017 BCA rule book states under Section 1 : "These general rules apply to all pocket billiard games, UNLESS specifically noted to the contrary in the individual game rules." It the offers a link to download general rules which takes us to World Pool-Billiard Association "The Rules of Play (Effective 15/3/16) "

In Section 1, Paragraph 4 (1.4) we find:

Spotting Balls

Balls are spotted (returned to play on the table) by placing them on the long string (long axis of the table) as close as possible to the foot spot and between the foot spot and the foot rail, without moving any interfering ball. If the spotted ball cannot be placed on the foot spot, it should be placed in contact (if possible) with the corresponding interfering ball. However, when the cue ball is next to the spotted ball, the spotted ball should not be placed in contact with the cue ball; a small separation must be maintained. If all of the long string below the foot spot is blocked by other balls, the ball is spotted above the foot spot, and as close as possible to the foot spot. [emphasis added -- LSJ]

This doesn't tell us what the BCA rule was in 1968, but it is clear about what the rule was in 2016, and presumably still.
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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'68 BCA Spotting Ball rule

'68 BCA Spotting Ball rule

LS John,
Here is the '68 BCA Spotting Ball Rule. Since all games were played by All Ball Fouls, then there is no differential between spotting a ball frozen to an object ball or spotting a ball frozen to the cue ball. Obviously to freeze a ball against another ball is not violating the All Ball Foul rule for they are spotted touching the ball.
This rule was probably a decades old rule prior to '68. Whitey
 

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LSJohn

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Thanks Whitey. You remembered correctly, but I was suspicious that the wording was such that it could be misinterpreted, or read two ways.

In fact, since these are the rotation rules you posted, there would be a difference in effect playing one pocket or 14-1, where freezing would allow a stroke "straight through" the frozen ball. In rotation, the spotted ball would never be the next object ball, because if it had been the one pocketed with the CB on the long string, it would have stayed down.

Do you have the 14-1 rules in the same rule book?
 

J SCHWARZ

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Thanks for posting this. I always thought that when there was no more room left to spot balls you spotted them left or right of the last ball on the line on the foot rail and worked your way back up, never above the spot. I've seen it done that way, but thinking back maybe it was just a move to try and keep the balls further down table or maybe they just agreed to do it that way. When players were giving dippy Dave 18,19, and 20 to 4 I thought all balls were spotted below the spot, maybe father time is catching up to me and I'm becoming senile.
:confused:
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Thanks Whitey. You remembered correctly, but I was suspicious that the wording was such that it could be misinterpreted, or read two ways.

In fact, since these are the rotation rules you posted, there would be a difference in effect playing one pocket or 14-1, where freezing would allow a stroke "straight through" the frozen ball. In rotation, the spotted ball would never be the next object ball, because if it had been the one pocketed with the CB on the long string, it would have stayed down.

Do you have the 14-1 rules in the same rule book?
LS John, The entire '68 BCA rule book, is 112 pages and covered 24 different games, including Billiard games & Snooker. After the first 22 pages devoted to Billiards then starts the Pocket Billiards. First General Rules, which is just a few lines, next pg. 26 Basic Pocket Billiards which is a page and a half. In it under Spotting Ball: Balls are spotted as outlined in general rules for spotting balls. (see "Rotation", pg.32). I believe they used 'Rotation' to place the Spotting Rule because when a Ball in Hand foul (behind the line) occurs and your next ball legal object ball (lowest # ball) is within the kitchen it spots, as it would also in all rotation games, like 9-ball. But my thumb is covering this part up.

This spotting rule applies to all games. Therefore One Pocket also. They did not have room to reprint this spotting rule for each game. Most all playing rules are listed under 14.1 which they reference as the Championship Game. This is why Johnston City went by the BCA 14.1 rules. It is approx. 14 pgs. long. You will not find a spotting rule in there. The One Pocket game rule is 3/4 of a page long, not much longer than the Spotting Rule. From this, one can surmise that Johnston City '61 would of played OP by this spotting rule.

In the past I have posted the original BCA One Pocket game rule along with the original Johnston City OP game rule writing on OP.org. BCA first recognized OP in '67.

I am truly a time capsule, '69-'73, I only played by spotting balls frozen to the cue ball, never even knew of or heard of leaving a gap. Once I stopped playing I never went back, so rules after '73 I do not know. And yes, this spotting rule was played this way for decades going a long ways back before '68. Thanks, LS! Whitey
 

LSJohn

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LS John, The entire '68 BCA rule book, is 112 pages and covered 24 different games, including Billiard games & Snooker. After the first 22 pages devoted to Billiards then starts the Pocket Billiards. First General Rules, which is just a few lines, next pg. 26 Basic Pocket Billiards which is a page and a half. In it under Spotting Ball: Balls are spotted as outlined in general rules for spotting balls. (see "Rotation", pg.32). I believe they used 'Rotation' to place the Spotting Rule because when a Ball in Hand foul (behind the line) occurs and your next ball legal object ball (lowest # ball) is within the kitchen it spots, as it would also in all rotation games, like 9-ball. But my thumb is covering this part up.

This spotting rule applies to all games. Therefore One Pocket also. They did not have room to reprint this spotting rule for each game. Most all playing rules are listed under 14.1 which they reference as the Championship Game. This is why Johnston City went by the BCA 14.1 rules. It is approx. 14 pgs. long. You will not find a spotting rule in there. The One Pocket game rule is 3/4 of a page long, not much longer than the Spotting Rule. From this, one can surmise that Johnston City '61 would of played OP by this spotting rule.

In the past I have posted the original BCA One Pocket game rule along with the original Johnston City OP game rule writing on OP.org. BCA first recognized OP in '67.

I am truly a time capsule, '69-'73, I only played by spotting balls frozen to the cue ball, never even knew of or heard of leaving a gap. Once I stopped playing I never went back, so rules after '73 I do not know. And yes, this spotting rule was played this way for decades going a long ways back before '68. Thanks, LS! Whitey

Thanks. I think you've made it as clear as it can be. I wonder when the spotting rule was changed.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Thanks. I think you've made it as clear as it can be. I wonder when the spotting rule was changed.
I would say, and it would be a guess on my part; when All Ball Fouls was replaced by Cue Ball Foul Only. This is just conjecture; but that seems reasonable and falls in line with their thinking, for you can disturb a single object ball and not be a foul, but it is a foul to disturb the cue ball. So in spotting a ball you can spot frozen to an object ball but not a cue ball.
Of course Cue Ball Foul Only was used in tournaments because tournaments got larger and it was impossible to have a referee at each table, to watch for All Ball Fouls, so they just made it 'not' a foul to foul (disturb) an object ball.

So what year did Cue Ball Foul Only come into effect?
This might very well answer the when and why!

For me, I'd much rather play by All Ball Fouls (a clean game), and spot balls frozen to all balls, including the cue ball.

I was taught by 'Butch' the owner of the Bellflower Palace that if you disturb a ball and continue to shoot it is a foul, but it is not a foul if you stop and acknowledge you disturbed a ball. He said; "this is the way Hustler's play". Whitey
 
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LSJohn

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spot balls frozen to all balls, including the cue ball.

It would rarely make a significant difference, but it would reduce the value of shots similar to Efren's taking a foul while rolling the CB onto the spot, because the incoming player would have the additional option of shooting through the spotted ball.

I guess opinions could vary regarding whether that was a good effect or a bad one.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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It would rarely make a significant difference, but it would reduce the value of shots similar to Efren's taking a foul while rolling the CB onto the spot, because the incoming player would have the additional option of shooting through the spotted ball.

I guess opinions could vary regarding whether that was a good effect or a bad one.
LS John, This is the essence of the discussion; Efren's ability to be rewarded for committing a foul under todays spotting rule, thus trapping the opponent by their inability to shoot into the spotted ball. You are spot on in recognizing this!

Rules of yesteryear are being lost. Not long ago Steve asked for comments about the ob being jumped off the table. He did not get any replies. Jumped ob off the table was not traditionally a foul and would be spotted immediately. We see this rule on the same page as the spotting rule.

Why would this rule be relevant in OP. Well for one, if an ob ball is by the opponents pocket and then you caused it to jump off the table (cue ball does not jump) then the ball spots. The coming opponent would be shooting at a single ball spotted which is much easier to do something with than two balls spotted. *Plus this is the way OP would of been traditionally played before the new ob jumped rule came out*! So there is a subtle change.

We now know the lag rule was unique to OP back in the day '67 first year BCA OP, for OP is unique because players have choice of scoring pocket, unlike any other games. Thus the winner of the lag can choose to break or not, 'but maintains choice of pocket'. Therefore he can pass the break but still maintains the right to chose his pocket. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Straight Pool has now lost the Nursing Rule, of where you can only tap an ob to a rail 2 times, 3rd. time is a penalty. 'A great rule', and a great rule for any game, now lost. I'd like to see this rule adopted for OP, penalty BIH. The 3 consecutive foul rule was not a rule in Johnston City, but it is a rule now, thus the Nurse Rule could also be adopted.

Our American traditional BIH behind the line rule is now lost, that we all played by forever. I'd like to see that re-instated.

My point is for OP.org to secure their rules they then should develop their own General Rules, IMO. Whitey
 
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