Ruling on an accidental touch of object ball....and it goes in pocket.

[tucson9ball]

This happened in a gambling match that I was watching, and I was curious what rule covered this? This is not during a tournament, so the players were not using "all ball fouls".
Player A had just taken a shot from the head of the table. After completing his shot, he accidentally bumped the 3ball and it went into the corner pocket. Originally the 3ball was sitting about 1 diamond from the corner pocket. No other balls moved, and it did not affect the outcome of the shot.
I honestly can't remember seeing this happen. What ruling should be used?
Rule 6.1.1, Restoring Position could be used or possibly 6.5, Ball off Table.

 

[NH Steve]

This happened in a gambling match that I was watching, and I was curious what rule covered this? This is not during a tournament, so the players were not using "all ball fouls".
Player A had just taken a shot from the head of the table. After completing his shot, he accidentally bumped the 3ball and it went into the corner pocket. Originally the 3ball was sitting about 1 diamond from the corner pocket. No other balls moved, and it did not affect the outcome of the shot.
I honestly can't remember seeing this happen. What ruling should be used?
Rule 6.1.1, Restoring Position could be used or possibly 6.5, Ball off Table.

Assuming it had no potential effect on the shot (like another ball passed through any of that area between where that ball originally was, and where it ended up), then being only a single ball disturbed, it would be the option of the opponent to restore it to where it was, or leave it in the pocket to be spotted at the end of the inning. No penalty as long as only one ball was accidentally moved with no effect upon the shot.

 

[tucson9ball]

Assuming it had no potential effect on the shot (like another ball passed through any of that area between where that ball originally was, and where it ended up), then being only a single ball disturbed, it would be the option of the opponent to restore it to where it was, or leave it in the pocket to be spotted at the end of the inning. No penalty as long as only one ball was accidentally moved with no effect upon the shot.

Thanks for reply

 

[Nick B]

Assuming it had no potential effect on the shot (like another ball passed through any of that area between where that ball originally was, and where it ended up), then being only a single ball disturbed, it would be the option of the opponent to restore it to where it was, or leave it in the pocket to be spotted at the end of the inning. No penalty as long as only one ball was accidentally moved with no effect upon the shot.

I would have read it like a foul...not the moving of the ball...but the "scratching". Not that I'm 100% on that one.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

This is the BCAPL / CSI official rule. This is their cue ball foul only rule. It went through changes in '12. What applies to your question is in rule 6.
Rule 7 is a little know rule in which the one in govern have set themselves up as god like, in that they have created a new way to loose a game. Yes, a new way to even loose at One Pocket. I did a video of this showing how you can loose and posted it up, so be careful playing by these rules.

I have not a clue how WPA plays this, most likely they do not have a rule, for their rules are wrote for referees and they would probably are schooled on this and would follow their cue ball foul only rules. I do not feel like searching through the vastness of their rules to try and find it. WPA does not govern over the game of OP, so their rules are not geared towards the game of OP. But they are making in roads into American OP for we see DCC and I believe the International OP going to WPA. I believe the in roads is in sponsorship money, correct me I am wrong.
Whitey

BCAPL / CSI
1-33 Disturbed Balls (Cue Ball Fouls Only) (AR p. 91)

1. During a game, it is not a foul if you accidentally touch or move a single stationary object ball with any part of your body, clothing or equipment, unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot.
2. "Effect on the outcome of the shot" means that either the disturbed ball contacts any ball set in motion as a result of the shot, or that the base of any ball set in motion as a result of the shot passes through the area originally occupied by the disturbed ball. That area is defined as a circle approximately seven inches in diameter centered on the OFFICIAL RULES OF CUESPORTS INTERNATIONAL 34 position originally occupied by the disturbed ball (see Diagram 6).
3. If a disturbed ball has no effect on the outcome of the shot, your opponent has the option to leave the disturbed ball where it came to rest or to restore it to its original position before the next shot. If the disturbed ball is to be restored, a referee may restore it, your opponent may restore it, or you may restore it with your opponent’s permission. It is a foul if you touch or restore the disturbed ball without your opponent's permission.
4. It is a foul if a disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot. Your opponent has no restoration option.
5. If you disturb a single object ball and, in the same shot, commit a foul that is not related to the disturbed ball: you are penalized for the foul, and your opponent has the restoration option for the disturbed ball that was not involved in the foul.

6. If a single disturbed ball falls into a pocket with no effect on the outcome of a shot, your opponent has the restoration option. However, if the disturbed ball is designated by specific game rules as the game winning ball, it must be restored. If the game-winning ball is disturbed and falls into a pocket when there is an effect on the outcome of the shot, it is loss of game.

7. It is a foul if:
a. you disturb the cue ball;
b. you disturb more than one object ball;
c. a disturbed ball contacts any other ball;
d. you disturb a ball that is in motion.
Your opponent has no restoration option. If the game-winning ball is disturbed in conjunction with a violation of (a) through (d) and falls into a pocket, it is loss of game.

To put rule 7 into perspective. In playing 9=ball and you disturb a ball that say contacts the 9 ball and it gets pocketed, it then is a loss of game. They have created a new way to lose a game of 9-ball ! Unbelievable !

Below is from the AR section. AR is applied rulings. They set up various scenarios that could arise in a game. They effectively explain the ruling and why. The problem is that these rulings are used to complete the main rule, of which they have left out rule disciplines instead of completing the rule within the rule. This makes for going back and forth to get the full ruling. WPA makes the same mistakes.

Discussion, Rule 1-33-6: The “game winning ball” is designated by rule in 8-Ball, 9-Ball and 10-Ball. In One Pocket and Bank Pool, a ball is designated as the game-winning ball if it is the last ball on the table and the shooter needs only one more ball to win the game. There is never a specific game-winning ball in 14.1 Continuous.

 

[NH Steve]

I was in a partners game last night, playing the local Around the World game, not One Pocket. My partner made a nice short three railer into the last side pocket for the win, but being a thin cut that had to be struck fairly hard, the cue ball bounced off the first rail a little and came down right in front of my opponent where he was leaning against the table for the shot. One of the opponent's who was sitting behind the shooter called foul. It was certainly plausible that the cue ball touched my partner or his shirt, but there was no way the opponent sitting where he was could ever have seen it. I asked everybody who had a view what happened and nobody saw it. You can't really call a contact foul like that if you did not see it, if you ask me. My partner insisted it never touched him. Upshot we won.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I was in a partners game last night, playing the local Around the World game, not One Pocket. My partner made a nice short three railer into the last side pocket for the win, but being a thin cut that had to be struck fairly hard, the cue ball bounced off the first rail a little and came down right in front of my opponent where he was leaning against the table for the shot. One of the opponent's who was sitting behind the shooter called foul. It was certainly plausible that the cue ball touched my partner or his shirt, but there was no way the opponent sitting where he was could ever have seen it. I asked everybody who had a view what happened and nobody saw it. You can't really call a contact foul like that if you did not see it, if you ask me. My partner insisted it never touched him. Upshot we won.

yes, that happens. I've played regional bca tournaments and it has happened to me a few times. My seated opponent 12 feet away said my cue ball contacted his ball before mine. Impossible for him to have a clear view of what actually happened for my cue ball passed across his object ball blocking his view of his ob. A referee had to be called, I finally got so mad I just gave him the cue ball in hand and said I do not need to cheat to beat you, he also got an ass chewing from the referee.
It ruined our entire match, and when he lost he still was bitching about that foul, saying; " I know what I saw". If you seen the layout it would of been impossible for me to contact his ball and still make my ball.

Another time playing team 9-ball, I broke the rack and made the classical 1 ball in the side pocket, the other team's captain said I did not hit the 1 ball and it was a foul. After about 5 minutes of him claiming this, his own team had to tell him that yes I hit the head 1 ball on the break.

In both instances I knew the players and there were of course very good people, it is just that they want to win so bad they see things.
Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

hypothetical question, if a player has already pocketed 8 balls, however didn't realize this and fouled the next shot, does the game continue. i'm the gentleman and will always go with the thought that my error continued the game rather than to say i won already, so tell me what is the rule that says the foul does count, because of the error in counting then fouling.

This is a question that was put to me, I asked the fellow member if he would like to thread it, but he did not, so I do not think he would mind if I posted it here. It is a good question!
Whitey

 

[HowardK]

hypothetical question, if a player has already pocketed 8 balls, however didn't realize this and fouled the next shot, does the game continue. i'm the gentleman and will always go with the thought that my error continued the game rather than to say i won already, so tell me what is the rule that says the foul does count, because of the error in counting then fouling.

This is a question that was put to me, I asked the fellow member if he would like to thread it, but he did not, so I do not think he would mind if I posted it here. It is a good question!
Whitey

Hi Whitey, I believe the game was already won if you were playing 9 Ball. Same thing as racking the balls after pocketing the 9 ball.

 

[lll]

hypothetical question, if a player has already pocketed 8 balls, however didn't realize this and fouled the next shot, does the game continue. i'm the gentleman and will always go with the thought that my error continued the game rather than to say i won already, so tell me what is the rule that says the foul does count, because of the error in counting then fouling.

This is a question that was put to me, I asked the fellow member if he would like to thread it, but he did not, so I do not think he would mind if I posted it here. It is a good question!
Whitey

game is over when you pocket your game ball legally
jmho

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Hi Whitey, I believe the game was already won if you were playing 9 Ball. Same thing as racking the balls after pocketing the 9 ball.

HowardK, it is refering to OP.
thanks!
Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

game is over when you pocket your game ball legally
jmho

Not so sure of that, Guys!
Whitey

 

[lll]

Not so sure of that, Guys!
Whitey

from our rules whitey
...........................................
One Pocket is a unique game for two players or two teams, in that each player or team can only score into one of the two corner pockets at the foot end of the table, while the other can only score into the other corner pocket at the foot end of the table. The other four pockets are neutral pockets, and any balls pocketed in a neutral pocket are spotted rather than scored. There is no requirement to ‘call your shot’ in One Pocket, and no special order or significance to any numbered object balls. The first player to legally score eight balls into their own pocket wins the game.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

For sake of a discussion, I'll offer the other side of this discussion;
By rule 10, players must know their own score. The shooter error in not knowing the score.
A game can not be won if there is no declaration by the shooter and / or a concession agreement by the opponent. Every game ends this way.
In this case the game was not won but continued, and he scratched. So there we are, a good question!
Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

For sake of a discussion, I'll offer the other side of this discussion;
By rule 10, players must know their own score. The shooter error in not knowing the score.
A game can not be won if there is no declaration by the shooter and / or a concession agreement by the opponent. Every game ends this way.
In this case the game was not won but continued, and he scratched. So there we are, a good question!
Whitey

I would be inclined to say if the shooter made their out ball, but did not realize it, and they played on and scratched/fouled their very next shot (taking them off their out ball), and they themselves went on to spot the ball and sit, and the opponent shot -- for sure play on. If it is discovered when they go to spot the owed ball, then I'd be inclined to go with the game having been won, as it was just discovered before the opponent assumed the table for their shot. Logic? Interpretation of the rules? No, just my gut. Now I need to reread the rules lol.

 

[TadB]

Assuming it had no potential effect on the shot (like another ball passed through any of that area between where that ball originally was, and where it ended up), then being only a single ball disturbed, it would be the option of the opponent to restore it to where it was, or leave it in the pocket to be spotted at the end of the inning. No penalty as long as only one ball was accidentally moved with no effect upon the shot.

I don't know you have the option to spot it, but I like it.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I would be inclined to say if the shooter made their out ball, but did not realize it, and they played on and scratched/fouled their very next shot (taking them off their out ball), and they themselves went on to spot the ball and sit, and the opponent shot -- for sure play on. If it is discovered when they go to spot the owed ball, then I'd be inclined to go with the game having been won, as it was just discovered before the opponent assumed the table for their shot. Logic? Interpretation of the rules? No, just my gut. Now I need to reread the rules lol.

There you go, very nicely stated and reasoned out, from the man!
Whitey

 

[lll]

I would be inclined to say if the shooter made their out ball, but did not realize it, and they played on and scratched/fouled their very next shot (taking them off their out ball), and they themselves went on to spot the ball and sit, and the opponent shot -- for sure play on. If it is discovered when they go to spot the owed ball, then I'd be inclined to go with the game having been won, as it was just discovered before the opponent assumed the table for their shot. Logic? Interpretation of the rules? No, just my gut. Now I need to reread the rules lol.

you could say snooze you lose but the game was over when he made his game ball
thats my story and i am sticking to it

 

[vapros]

This is not in reference to the original question of this thread, but rather to the hypothet offered in post #8. (I think I just invented a word) Is the game over if the shooter doesn't know it? Seems to be very similar to the situation where an owed ball is overlooked, or slept until the end of the game. The answer to one should be the answer to both, no?

 

[J.R.]

I would compare this situation to a recent one pocket game where the shooter asked his opponent a question regarding the score. The shooter asked, "Do I need two balls?" The opponent answered, "Yes." The shooter made the two balls and immediately raked the remaining balls for the win. The opponent realized that he misspoke because the shooter actually needed three balls for the win. The opponent stated that the shooter lost the game because he raked the balls still needing one ball to win. The shooter rightfully objected because the opponent verbally agreed that the shooter only needed two balls. My understanding, based on the one pocket rules, is that the opponent lost the game by verbally affirming to the shooter that he needed two balls. The opponent should have remained silent or should have informed the shooter to calculate how many balls he needed for the win. Being a former police officer I believe that the opponent "has the right to remain silent and anything he says could be used against him in the one pocket court of law."

In furtherance, I believe the same rationale applies to the hypothetical situation in question. If the shooter does not know he won because he has mistakenly counted his score incorrectly, then fouls, and spots his game winning ball... then the game goes on if the opposing player does not inform the shooter that he had won the game prior to the foul but instead remains silent and takes his legal turn at the table.