Rules question

darmoose

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Player A and player are playing OP for $50 a game,. Game score is even after several games. They are playing "rack your own" and if you make a ball you rerack.

Player A breaks and makes a ball, but scratches at the same time.

Scenario 1. Player A reracks and breaks again. Score is 0-0.

Scenario 2. Player A spots the ball he made on the break, player B has BIH behind the line. Score is -1-0.

What do ya think and why?:help
 

cincy_kid

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I would think you re-rack because you made a ball, scratch or not.

if you can't run out when you make a ball, you cant get penalized for it too...

imo
 

lll

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spot the ball you made
opponent gets ball in hand behind the line
score -1-0
the rule was to stop the "unfair " advantage of making a ball on the break and running out
 

lll

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I would think you re-rack because you made a ball, scratch or not.

if you can't run out when you make a ball, you cant get penalized for it too...

imo

cincy i think that the rule should be you re rack if you scratch and dont make a ball too
logic being if you cant capitalize when you make one why be penalized if you scratch??
 

jlcomp45

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this is why John Crabb & I have begun playing break & sit down rules - regardless of making a ball or not - your inning ends with the break. I argued endlessly against re-rack with making a ball on the break if you didn't get to do it on scratches. Seemed unfair that you could only be punished on your break & never rewarded.

John

p.s - in this particular situation with the guidelines as put in orig post - I would say spot made ball - owe one - player 2 shot. No ball was "legally" made - so normal rules would apply not a re-rack.
 

cincy_kid

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I like the re-rack if you make one rule better than make one and keep shooting however I could also play "break and done" (someone called it this in another thread)..I like the breaker's inning ending after their break no matter what else is made.
 

gulfportdoc

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Player A and player are playing OP for $50 a game,. Game score is even after several games. They are playing "rack your own" and if you make a ball you rerack.

Player A breaks and makes a ball, but scratches at the same time.
Scenario 1. Player A reracks and breaks again. Score is 0-0.
Scenario 2. Player A spots the ball he made on the break, player B has BIH behind the line. Score is -1-0.
What do ya think and why?:help
Scenario 1. If they're playing re-rack if ball pocketed, the re-rack nullifies any foul. They start fresh.

~Doc
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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This is an excellent question that applies to an alternative rule used in tournaments! DCC goes by this rule but when you look at their rules under games/OP it does not appear, let alone a clarification when a person also scratches. I would assume play continues with opponent having BIH. Score -1-0. A good example of grey matter within alternative tournament rule.

Here is a scenario; the breaker does an unusual break (contacting a rail or rails prior to contacting the rack of balls) and neglects to specify their designated pocket, then what? The opponent does not know the breakers pocket! In our rules it states it is suggested to designate your pocket when using an unusual break to avoid a conflict. This is how I would have it; it is a foul when employing an unusual break to not designate your pocket prior to breaking, resulting in opponent excepting the table as is, with choice of pocket! This eliminates the grey matter.

Here is another scenario; For a legal break the qb has to be legally placed and stroked, and must contact the rack thereafter either the qb or an ob must contact a rail, or a ball can be pocketed in any pocket, otherwise it is a foul with opponent accepting the table as is. Well what if the breaker for example miscues and does not contact the rack, or double clutches the qb then what should the result be? My answer is loss of point and opponent has option for a re-rack and break!

Has anyone ever heard that a foul on the break does not count towards the 3 foul rule? As of now I believe it does in OP, for there is nothing to the contrary, but should it? Whitey
 
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lll

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I would think you re-rack because you made a ball, scratch or not.

if you can't run out when you make a ball, you cant get penalized for it too...

imo

spot the ball you made
opponent gets ball in hand behind the line
score -1-0
the rule was to stop the "unfair " advantage of making a ball on the break and running out

cincy
my house pro AGREED WITH YOU...:)
if YOU dont get rewarded for making a ball
YOU shouldnt get penalized for MAKING A BALL AND SCRATCHING
as long as i made a ball
RERACK
 

lll

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this is why John Crabb & I have begun playing break & sit down rules - regardless of making a ball or not - your inning ends with the break. I argued endlessly against re-rack with making a ball on the break if you didn't get to do it on scratches. Seemed unfair that you could only be punished on your break & never rewarded.

John

p.s - in this particular situation with the guidelines as put in orig post - I would say spot made ball - owe one - player 2 shot. No ball was "legally" made - so normal rules would apply not a re-rack.

i like that better than rerack
for the record
my opinion

if you make a ball on the break you should keep shooting
 

vapros

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Seems to me that when he made a ball on the break, their rule indicates 'no dice', and they start the game over. Practice shot, mulligan, head fake, slipsies, miscue. "As you were' they said in the military. (Would that I could) :D
 

LSJohn

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cincy
my house pro AGREED WITH YOU...:)
if YOU dont get rewarded for making a ball
YOU shouldnt get penalized for MAKING A BALL AND SCRATCHING
as long as i made a ball
RERACK

The whole idea of re-rack was/is based upon the belief that making a ball on the break is mostly luck. If you think scratching is mostly luck, the the two would be equivalent -- apples to apples. But if you think one is luck and the other is poor execution, there's nothing wrong with taking away the advantage of the lucky one but still punishing the poor execution of the other.

Even break-and-done leaves this same problem open: If you make one you don't get to continue (punishment) but if you scratch, you're still penalized.

Some may favor re-rack (or break-and-done) because it takes away some of the advantage of the break. If you don't punish on a scratch, you're giving the advantage back. But, if the only issue is what to do when you both make a ball and scratch, it isn't a very big deal because it won't happen very often, but we still need a clear idea of what to do when it does.
 

Nick B

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Rules question

You didn’t make a ball. You fouled. Very simple. -1 and player B shoots. Nothing else is within the rules. Player A’s ball didn’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

beatle

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its always been traditionally played if you make one on the break its yours. why change that. so the not as good player cant possibly get a little lucky and have a chance.

plus if you want to take a risk and hit a little lower and risk selling you for the chance to make a ball thats part of the game.

next then do we play call shot one pocket in case someone sh-ts one in. same thing isnt it.
 

gulfportdoc

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...
Here is another scenario; For a legal break the qb has to be legally placed and stroked, and must contact the rack thereafter either the qb or an ob must contact a rail, or a ball can be pocketed in any pocket, otherwise it is a foul with opponent accepting the table as is. Well what if the breaker for example miscues and does not contact the rack, or double clutches the qb then what should the result be? My answer is loss of point and opponent has option for a re-rack and break!

Has anyone ever heard that a foul on the break does not count towards the 3 foul rule? As of now I believe it does in OP, for there is nothing to the contrary, but should it? Whitey
On the break shot, once the CB crosses the head string it's considered a legal turn at the table. If the CB does not contact the rack it's loss of point, and the opponent shoots from wherever the CB lays.

~Doc
 

Mkbtank

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Rules question

You didn’t make a ball. You fouled. Very simple. -1 and player B shoots. Nothing else is within the rules. Player A’s ball didn’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, Nick.


its always been traditionally played if you make one on the break its yours. why change that. so the not as good player cant possibly get a little lucky and have a chance.



plus if you want to take a risk and hit a little lower and risk selling you for the chance to make a ball thats part of the game.



next then do we play call shot one pocket in case someone sh-ts one in. same thing isnt it.


I agree as well, Beatle. I am not a fan of the re-rack rule at all and don’t play it unless it’s in a tournament.
 

cincy_kid

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I, of course, have also played 'make a ball - keep shooting' ever since I learned the game 25 years or so ago.

Personally, here is why I have grown to like the re-rack way better:

When playing someone and you see the bottom ball leak out and go over right in front of your opponent's hole, leaving them an easy first shot at their hole with potential to run more, you wonder, did I hit that bad? Did I hit the wrong ball? Did they rig the rack on me??

Obviously the breaker has the chance to check over the rack and make sure it's good. A lot of times we don't do that (myself admittedly) because you don't spend the extra time or maybe you don't want to suggest you don't trust your opponent, or maybe you do look and don't catch whatever they may have done to it.

The point is, if I get to rack my own, I will never have to worry about that. i am 100% confident that I am not going to rack it bad for myself, at least not intentionally lol. So now it puts all of it on me. If I get to rack and break, and it comes out bad, then i need to work on that part of my game.

That being said, and since people DO work on their rack and break, I am sure that there are ways to manipulate the rack so that you make a ball or make it turn out a lot better than if your opponent were to rack. I don't do it, but some guarantee do.

So if you play re-rack when a ball goes in or break and done, you don't ever have to worry about it. IMO it takes any unfairness out of the equation. Also, this isn't 9-ball, isn't the break for our chess like game meant to position balls to our side while keeping the CB relatively safe?

I am all for shot clocks or anything else that may speed the game play up, but I don't think continuing to shoot if you make one on the break is part of a good solution for that.
 

darmoose

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Thanks for the input guys. I agree with the majority on this question. Although not an official rule, when playing "rerack" there must be logic applied for it to be meritorious. Is the break shot offensive or is it defensive, both views have merit. Perhaps it is just a neutral shot designed to get the game underway and give each player a chance at the table, giving them "responsibility for their own demise", rather than just luck.:heh

I believe the priority on the OP break is to push balls to my hole and get the CB to a safe position,while avoiding a scratch. Making a ball is just luck, and I prefer to eliminate luck from the break. I am OK with the "rerack" rule, but prefer the "break and sit down" rule (and you can keep the ball you made).

Any "house" rule agreed to like "rerack" implies that a ball made, is made legally (which does not include a scratch). There is no reason to assume that playing rerack suspends other rules of the game like, if you scratch the ball you pocketed does not count. And since that ball wouldn't count under any circumstances, there is no reason the breaker should be rewarded by not counting his scratch (saving him a point) and giving him a "do over".

Reracking when a ball is made, also does not include when a ball is made in the SIDE pocket, if one needs that clarification also.:rolleyes:
 

baby huey

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This is a good question about the re-rack. I'm not sure what the rule should be if not discussed before the match began. In this scenario, the game doesn't really start until a legal break is made and that includes a ball isn't made on the snap. That probably should include the cueball as well.
 

beatle

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if you play rerack for money you have to make all the different scenarios clear. you cant just tell opponent you make a ball on the break its a rerack.

or if any ball goes in in any way then its a rerack. even one in opponents pocket or an argument starts. why fool around with simple rules..
 
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