One Ball One Pocket

darmoose

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Yes, that's why the name, "Sudden Death" One Ball One Pocket -- to differentiate it.

That is an interesting idea. I like it better than Mitch's Philly One Ball One Pocket ("Bare Ball" I think they call it). And better than the way they played it at Southern Rec. What you are talking about is basically One and Stop applied to One Ball One Pocket. But I'm not sure why you would need to add that additional rule, other than some people's obsession with the idea that since it is called One Ball One Pocket, there should never be more than one ball on the table. :D

You can limit fouls and play standard One Pocket (starting with only one ball of course), and that works fine, and you still get plenty of spot shots -- every time there is a simple pocket scratch or foul without a ball pocketed on the same stroke. So what if there might be 2-3 balls on the table. It's the true end game of One Pocket -- what could be better than that? The only reason to even have any foul limits -- whether Sudden Death or if you are limited to needing two balls -- is just to keep the games short. That would be mainly for tournament play I would think.
I was not advocating that only one ball could be on the table. But, if you play that balls could be jumped of the table when pocketing the ball in your opponents hole....then I suggested that you play using the one and stop rule, so the player who needs two can't simply run out and win the game.

My rational for suggesting this is that the OBOP game is won by pocketing the ball from wherever your opponent has left you. Allowing a player to play position off of his own shot and run two balls is a departure from that scenario and does not fully penalize him for his previous foul, and obviously favors the better shooter.
 

LSJohn

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Probably have a lot of fouls since you have to hit a specific ball
I think in this form failing to hit the correct next ball should not be a foul, but a roll-out, maybe with this additional modification: Following a roll-out that opponent declines, shooter may not pocket a ball in his/her own pocket on the next shot.

edit to add: Or, perhaps rollout is only permitted if the next ball in rotation cannot be hit without a kick or curve.
 

lll

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I get it, Larry.. It's an entirely different game and so why not enjoy both of them.. LIke if somebody asks you to play some one ball op, you just say, you want sudden death or regular one ball? Just like in a bar and you're asking marks to play Eight Ball and a guy says he will play Last Pocket Eight Ball, then you are aware, because it's a very different animal...
Jimmy if the game is called SUDDEN DEATH ONEBALL ONEPOCKET
i am ok with that
 

NH Steve

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I was not advocating that only one ball could be on the table. But, if you play that balls could be jumped of the table when pocketing the ball in your opponents hole....then I suggested that you play using the one and stop rule, so the player who needs two can't simply run out and win the game.

My rational for suggesting this is that the OBOP game is won by pocketing the ball from wherever your opponent has left you. Allowing a player to play position off of his own shot and run two balls is a departure from that scenario and does not fully penalize him for his previous foul, and obviously favors the better shooter.
We agree on this second paragraph. But now you have me confused on your One and Stop idea. If you are playing that more than one ball can be on the table, then the penalty ball spots right away, then two balls go on the spot. By the time the player that scratch/fouled gets back to the table, why shouldn't they be able to run two balls if the opportunity is there? Your one and Stop idea only improves the Southern Rec method of playing in my opinion., where the penalty balls are held until the guilty player pockets a ball.
 

lll

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This is Steve's game rule, with a few changes to continuing play, and only one object ball is ever on the table, unless the optional play is used.

One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, that is only played with one object ball.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

Continuing Play:
In the event of a scratch or table foul it is a loss of game. Exception being this scenario; when the opponent has the object ball in scoring position, and it is either jumped off the table or pocketed and followed in with a pocket scratch or with the cue ball being jumped off the table. This results in no foul and the object ball is spotted and the opponent takes ball in hand behind the line.
Optional play: the above scenario results in a foul and the object is spotted along with another ball for the foul, opponent has ball in hand behind the line, and the offending player is playing to two.
-------------------------

It is the consensus of this thread that the members prefer 'sudden death'. But there is a problem with it, you cannot scratch/foul on the object ball rattled in the opponent's pocket, for it is an automatic loss. And also, there is a problem with allowing scratches, for the player can simply pocket the ball and play position for the upcoming spotted ball, and it lengthens the games, of which is not conducive for tournament use.

Players should be able to play a clean game without scratching. A mini tournament race to 4, then either scenario I would think the players would be ok with!
Your thoughts!
Whitey
whiteys version
or the version where you lose if you scratch should be called
SUDDEN DEATH ONE BALL ONEPOCKET
to make it clear what game you are playing
like jimmy said just like back pocket 8 ball is not called just 8 ball by these rules
or the same with back pocket nine ball is not called 9 ball but we will play by these rules
as long as there is a distinction i am ok with that
and would play it as i beleive playing all games helps your pool game
 

NH Steve

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Here are the rules that we came up with, and yes, the sudden death version is called "Sudden Death" :)

One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, beginning with just one object ball on the table.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

Continuing Play:
In the event of a scratch or foul, the offending player spots up an additional ball, and play continues with the offending player now needing the additional ball/s for the win. The first player to score game ball wins, as long as any applicable scratch penalties have been paid.

Foul Limit Options:
“Sudden Death” One Ball One Pocket:
Played the same as above, except any scratch or foul is an immediate loss of game. There is no penalty for pocketing the object ball in a neutral pocket; it simply spots on the foot spot and play continues.

Needing 3 is loss of game: To avoid longer games due to back scratches, in the event that a player already needs two balls (due to an earlier scratch or foul not yet repaid), any additional scratch or foul that would normally result in that player needing three balls, instead results in loss of game. If this rule is in place, the scratches or fouls do not need to be “in a row”, so no warning is necessary.
 
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darmoose

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We agree on this second paragraph. But now you have me confused on your One and Stop idea. If you are playing that more than one ball can be on the table, then the penalty ball spots right away, then two balls go on the spot. By the time the player that scratch/fouled gets back to the table, why shouldn't they be able to run two balls if the opportunity is there? Your one and Stop idea only improves the Southern Rec method of playing in my opinion., where the penalty balls are held until the guilty player pockets a ball.
they should not be able to run two and out because that is not the equivalent of winning two games........it is something less because he can play position rather than have to make his second ball after my shot and from where I leave him.........so the penalty for his fouling ends up being less than a full ball (or full game ) penalty.........thus playing one and stop which does provide the proper full penalty.......
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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OB-OP is only played with one ball on the table. Because the shooters can never accumulate a score. Playing it by standard OP rules then a scratch/foul is always owed the table and can only be repaid when a ball is pocketed. Thus, score the ball and then spot it. This is where many posts thought this is just too simple for you make the ball and play for the upcoming spot shot and score again and so forth. But, for a mini tournament it can lead to a quicker finish to the game. You add in the 3 accumulated foul limit is a loss of game, and there you have it.

But, if you make a scratch result in a ball is spotted, then it gives the opponent a clear shot at winning the game with making a spot shot, speeds up the game. But a table foul is played from where the cb lies, and it could result in just adding more balls onto the table and thus leading to a longer game which is not what a TD would want.

Now, if you mix in 'sudden death', then yes, the game can be speeded up, but when paying $200 to enter the mini, then would this work for the players. In a race to 4 it works for me, if with an opponent's ball in scoring position then it played to spot up when a scratch/foul occurs when being pocketed or jumped. Then the incoming player has to shoot a spot shot to win, not just rattle a ball, which stays in line with the conventional OB-OP. But that is me, for I feel these players are talented enough not to scratch and should not be afraid to play this way.

But, as Jimmy brought up, there is also the match up/hustler side of this to consider. We do not have any control of what TD's do, but the match up/hustler, this is where it gets interesting.

Shoot-out 9 ball had 4 different ways it could be played. And the variations would speed up the game. Two consecutive fouls by either player is BIH-Anywhere or play Two before the 9 is really akin to 'sudden death', for all balls behind the line are thrown down except two before the 9 on a scratch. But if you want to get it on, and make a scratch mean something, then this is the match up, 'Sudden Death', but does not apply to a ball in the opponent's scoring position. And you can also mix in a scratch a ball is spotted, this is for the match up players that want to play an end game scenario and add more balls to the table.

Either way, start learning spot shots!
Whitey
 
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NH Steve

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Here are the rules that we came up with, and yes, the sudden death version is called "Sudden Death" :)

One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, beginning with just one object ball on the table.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

Continuing Play:

In the event of a scratch or foul, the offending player spots up an additional ball, and play continues with the offending player now needing the additional ball/s for the win. The first player to score game ball wins, as long as any applicable scratch penalties have been paid.

Foul Limit Options:
“Sudden Death” One Ball One Pocket:
Played the same as above, except any scratch or foul is an immediate loss of game. There is no penalty for pocketing the object ball in a neutral pocket; it simply spots on the foot spot and play continues.

Needing 3 is loss of game: To avoid longer games due to back scratches, in the event that a player already needs two balls (due to an earlier scratch or foul not yet repaid), any additional scratch or foul that would normally result in that player needing three balls, instead results in loss of game. If this rule is in place, the scratches or fouls do not need to be “in a row”, so no warning is necessary.
Right here are three choices of how to play the game that are pretty consistent with tradional One Pocket. Then you have alternatives like Philly Bare Ball and you have Southern Rec “don’t spot a penalty ball till you make one”; you also have the California break — center diamond to Center diamond and shoot whatever you want. Lots of options, but I am never going to promote something that I believe would cause confusion regarding how the end game of standard one pocket is played. I think the above highlighted sentence is important.
 

darmoose

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This is Steve's game rule, with a few changes to continuing play, and only one object ball is ever on the table, unless the optional play is used.

One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, that is only played with one object ball.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

Continuing Play:
In the event of a scratch or table foul it is a loss of game. Exception being this scenario; when the opponent has the object ball in scoring position, and it is either jumped off the table or pocketed and followed in with a pocket scratch or with the cue ball being jumped off the table. This results in no foul and the object ball is spotted and the opponent takes ball in hand behind the line.
Optional play: the above scenario results in a foul and the object is spotted along with another ball for the foul, opponent has ball in hand behind the line, and the offending player is playing to two.
-------------------------

It is the consensus of this thread that the members prefer 'sudden death'. But there is a problem with it, you cannot scratch/foul on the object ball rattled in the opponent's pocket, for it is an automatic loss. And also, there is a problem with allowing scratches, for the player can simply pocket the ball and play position for the upcoming spotted ball, and it lengthens the games, of which is not conducive for tournament use.

Players should be able to play a clean game without scratching. A mini tournament race to 4, then either scenario I would think the players would be ok with!
Your thoughts!
Whitey
Steve,

This is Whiteys post #292 from yesterday that started this latest discussion. As you can see, he began with "this is Steve's game rule". I don't know where he got this, but it is obviously quite different than what you are posting now (above). I musta missed something along the way..........
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Darmoose, you left out the complete sentence that I started out with. This is it below.
This is Steve's game rule, with a few changes to continuing play, and only one object ball is ever on the table, unless the optional play is used.

Go to post #292 and that is Steve's suggestive Game rule writing. Steve started out the thread with a game rule writing and then after discussions and 291 posts he posted #292.

I used parts of his writing but offered up alternatives to spur discussions. Presenting ideas, then having meaningful discussions, and if those in power (Steve) engage then it makes it all the more meaningful and is the essence of developing rules. Without that, it is problematic.

We've now had some good discussions. I am not suggesting rule changes, just offering up ideas, to have discussed.
But as we can see in matching up/hustling there are some interesting ideas of how the game could possibly be played.
thanks guys!
Whitey
 
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darmoose

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Darmoose, you left out the complete sentence that I started out with. This is it below.
This is Steve's game rule, with a few changes to continuing play, and only one object ball is ever on the table, unless the optional play is used.

Go to post #292 and that is Steve's suggestive Game rule writing. Steve started out the thread with a game rule writing and then after discussions and 291 posts he posted #292.

I used parts of his writing but offered up alternatives to spur discussions. Presenting ideas, then having meaningful discussions, and if those in power (Steve) engage then it makes it all the more meaningful and is the essence of developing rules. Without that, it is problematic.

We've now had some good discussions. I am not suggesting rule changes, just offering up ideas, to have discussed.
But as we can see in matching up/hustling there are some interesting ideas of how the game could possibly be played.
thanks guys!
Whitey
Dennis,

I simply replied using your post. I copied it IN FULL. I did not leave anything out, so pls explain what you are talking about.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Here are the rules that we came up with, and yes, the sudden death version is called "Sudden Death" :)

One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, beginning with just one object ball on the table.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

Continuing Play:
In the event of a scratch or foul, the offending player spots up an additional ball, and play continues with the offending player now needing the additional ball/s for the win. The first player to score game ball wins, as long as any applicable scratch penalties have been paid.

Foul Limit Options:
“Sudden Death” One Ball One Pocket:
Played the same as above, except any scratch or foul is an immediate loss of game. There is no penalty for pocketing the object ball in a neutral pocket; it simply spots on the foot spot and play continues.

Needing 3 is loss of game: To avoid longer games due to back scratches, in the event that a player already needs two balls (due to an earlier scratch or foul not yet repaid), any additional scratch or foul that would normally result in that player needing three balls, instead results in loss of game. If this rule is in place, the scratches or fouls do not need to be “in a row”, so no warning is necessary.
-----------------------------------

This is Steve rule writing from post # 292. I believe it to be an excellent rule writing! It follows the standard game rules of OP, per say. Except, when we read Continuing Play, we see a scratch/foul the offending players spots up an additional ball, thus adding an additional ball to the table. This is where it varies from traditional OP, for the offending player has no scored balls to spot up, but it comes from the table.

I have no problem with that minor difference. For now, there are two balls spotted when fouling by playing OP standard rules on an opponent's ball in scoring position. So, you then have ball in hand to make a two-ball spot shot into your hole. There's nothing wrong with that! Plus there is an added benefit of spotting two balls, for that means you cannot score a ball and then spotted and score again.

This adding balls to the table then required a 3 foul accumulative limit. This is Steve's idea, and an excellent one, for the game rule.

Now, if we played standard OP rules then in this above scratch scenario then only a single ball would spot for no balls have been scored, and the incoming player would have a spot shot to win the game. And there would never be any additional balls on the table.
I can see where this is a quicker game but also a TD would grapple over this, for a ball rattled in the pocket is nearly sudden death, short of a spot shot. But it does give some importance to a rattled ball in your scoring pocket and gives some glimmer of hope that the spot shot might be missed. So, there are some pluses and minuses.

"Sudden Death", I believe Steve has coined this, and it is a great one. It sure is fitting, for any scratch or table foul is loss of game, so therefore a hung ball is also a sure winner, and sudden death.

I believe my favorite way to play this OB-OP, would be "sudden death", except for when a ball is hung in the opponent's pocket then that is played by normal OP rules, with a single ball being spotted and owe one, (option to spot two). Players decide, hustler rules, Imo!

This makes the player have to pocket the winning ball vs. a rattle job, I like that, and stays in line with OP, per say!
If we made this correction in how the game of OB-OP "sudden death" is played, then it would make more sense.

Hustlers, I believe would love it, for the quicker a game goes by the better they love it. So much so they would probably opt to spot one ball.

Your thoughts pertaining to "Sudden Death", how should it be played?
thanks, Whitey
 
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NH Steve

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This is Steve rule writing from post # 292. I believe it to be an excellent rule writing! It follows the standard game rules of OP, per say. Except, when we read Continuing Play, we see a scratch/foul the offending players spots up an additional ball, thus adding an additional ball to the table. This is where it varies from traditional OP, for the offending player has no scored balls to spot up, but it comes from the table.
What the heck?? No, this is where some people (and apparently you) are suggesting diverging from traditional One Pocket. In traditional One Pocket -- exactly like I have written here -- when you scratch/foul then YOU SPOT UP A PENALTY BALL. Those are the traditional rules of One Pocket, and have been for years and years. All One Ball One Pocket is, in this situation, is as if each player has already scored 7 balls, so THAT IS WHY THERE IS ONLY ONE BALL ON THE TABLE. So of course, as always, you spot your penalty ball from one of the 7 that you theoretically have -- just like traditional One Pocket!

Only if you (meaning the non-specific general "you) want to obsess with the idea that only one single ball should ever be on the table, simply because the game is called "One Ball One Pocket" would you see any problem with spotting a second penalty ball for a scratch.

As far as I know the game came into being as a short version of the traditional One Pocket game, starting with only the game ball on the table, in emulation of the end game, when both players have scored to the point that the game is now down to the last ball. That is the way I see it and advocate for it to be played, lest some odd version re-introduce confusion about when/whether to spot a ball in the end of a real genuine traditional game of One Pocket, when a foul occurs with only one ball on the table.

People confuse easily -- especially when they are first being introduced to One Pocket, and one of the things 1B1P is good for is introducing new players to One Pocket. We have worked so hard starting in 2004 to help people playing One Pocket by making good clear and complete rules available -- they never were before -- let's keep that going, not unwittingly sabotage it with a strange new idea of a different way to handle a scratch/foul when only one ball happens to be on the table. My opinion.
 

NH Steve

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Steve,

This is Whiteys post #292 from yesterday that started this latest discussion. As you can see, he began with "this is Steve's game rule". I don't know where he got this, but it is obviously quite different than what you are posting now (above). I musta missed something along the way..........
Dennis did say Steve's rules, but what he posted were not all my rules -- sometimes he does that :)
 

lll

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What the heck?? No, this is where some people (and apparently you) are suggesting diverging from traditional One Pocket. In traditional One Pocket -- exactly like I have written here -- when you scratch/foul then YOU SPOT UP A PENALTY BALL. Those are the traditional rules of One Pocket, and have been for years and years. All One Ball One Pocket is, in this situation, is as if each player has already scored 7 balls, so THAT IS WHY THERE IS ONLY ONE BALL ON THE TABLE. So of course, as always, you spot your penalty ball from one of the 7 that you theoretically have -- just like traditional One Pocket!

Only if you (meaning the non-specific general "you) want to obsess with the idea that only one single ball should ever be on the table, simply because the game is called "One Ball One Pocket" would you see any problem with spotting a second penalty ball for a scratch.

As far as I know the game came into being as a short version of the traditional One Pocket game, starting with only the game ball on the table, in emulation of the end game, when both players have scored to the point that the game is now down to the last ball. That is the way I see it and advocate for it to be played, lest some odd version re-introduce confusion about when/whether to spot a ball in the end of a real genuine traditional game of One Pocket, when a foul occurs with only one ball on the table.

People confuse easily -- especially when they are first being introduced to One Pocket, and one of the things 1B1P is good for is introducing new players to One Pocket. We have worked so hard starting in 2004 to help people playing One Pocket by making good clear and complete rules available -- they never were before -- let's keep that going, not unwittingly sabotage it with a strange new idea of a different way to handle a scratch/foul when only one ball happens to be on the table. My opinion.
excellent post steve
whitey i was going to post that if you assume both player made 7 thats why there is only one ball left
then they DO have a ball to spot and its not the table giving them a ball
but steve mentioned that above
i also dont beleive one ball one pocket means there can only be one ball on the table
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve,
I stated I like spotting two balls and added clarity that the spotted ball comes from the table. There is no problem here. The 'clarity' is not in your rules, so it is not I that has done anything wrong. Just a discussion.
I also stated this; "So, you then have ball in hand to make a two-ball spot shot into your hole. There's nothing wrong with that! Plus, there is an added benefit of spotting two balls, for that means you cannot score a ball and then have it spotted and score again". Clarity; as with one ball spotted.

Your rule writing of which I clearly agreed with, solves what many here were concerned about, and that is pocketing a ball and then playing for a spot shot, to pocket another ball when a ball is owed. It was found to be to simple.

What you are concerned about is that fact that I pointed out the spotting of one ball for no balls have been scored. This is just a discussion, which I have clarified that TD would struggle with this, and I pointed out the pluses and minuses. I never suggested to go to this.
But, I do feel there needs to be a clarification that the remaining balls are downed and scored.

My main concern is the "sudden death" and how the game is played. And I believe you have captured it correctly. I only question that it has a flaw in how it is played, not in how you captured the game.

I'd like this discussed, and I hope members continue this discussion on this.
Whitey

For clarification, so how about this Steve,
One Ball One Pocket
An abbreviated form of One Pocket, beginning with just one object ball on the table.

The Game:
Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break.

Continuing Play:
In the event of a scratch or foul, the offending player spots up an additional ball, and play continues with the offending player now needing the additional ball/s for the win. The first player to score game ball wins, as long as any applicable scratch penalties have been paid. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

I moved the 'Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter. I do hope it is alright for I and members to offer up a suggestion like this, for now it seems correct and in line with The Game rule writing and the Continuing Play writing, and obviously clarifies that balls are drawn from the table instead of balls scored, and thereafter Standard One Pocket rules apply.

Or, how about this Steve for a clarification of the remaining balls downed.
The Game: Begin with one ball frozen to the center of the foot rail, B-I-H from the kitchen with the remaining balls downed and counted as being scored. Breaker must open with a defensive shot. If the opening break leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break. Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter.

It is minor but adds clarity and is correct for declaring; " Standard One Pocket rules apply thereafter". For I am not knowledgeable, and neither are those new to the game that play starts with balls scored.
respectfully of course, Whitey
 
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darmoose

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Dennis did say Steve's rules, but what he posted were not all my rules -- sometimes he does that :)

It amazes me, the rationalization that goes on trying to promote one version of OBOP over another. Truth is that no one knows how or why this game was created or whether it was created to be played by the same rules as OP. It is obviously a gamblers version and meant to satisfy those who want to go faster than general OP so they can win more cheese. If the goal is to go fast, the "sudden death" version makes the most sense.

I think that leaves us with the reality that all versions are acceptable, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. I also don't think it needs to be adopted by OP.org, nor does it need any "official" rules of play. It is simply a game like Golf which is played by many different rules in many different areas of the country.

My personal preference is "sudden death", but with the exception of allowing the balls to be jumped or a pocket scratch played when the OB is in the jaws. I like the idea that the ball can be removed, but no foul is called. The OB is simply spotted and the incoming player has a clear spot shot to win the game. I think this solution gives the player credit for hanging the OB in his hole, but he still has to pocket the ball to win. This is why I said earlier that playing this way would bring back some importance to shooting spot shots....... :)
 

Mkbtank

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Throwing in my two cents. We play and gamble at this game in my area for years, and for good amounts. We actually call the game “Bare ball” and nothing ever spots up. Any Foul equals ball in hand, which usually ends the game. Sometimes scratches are an immediate loss depending on what you decide prior to starting.
 
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