old rules question - frozen balls & rails

[Nick B]

I know this has been addressed. I did a quick search and could not find this exact issue so I will ask our esteemed members.

Situation:
Cue & 3 Ball are frozen to each other (or not) but are BOTH touching the rail (X1).

I believe the rail X1 is dead to both balls and if you make a play on the 3 ball rail X1 is DEAD to you. Even if you leave and come back. IE masse out and back or kick out and back. X1 is dead and you need to find ANOTHER rail. Am I correct?

Part 2.
Assuming you are talking LONG rails is X2 an extension of X1 or a different rail and in "play". I ass this once where a player jacked up and the cueball swerved and hit X2 and an argument was generated and my opinion was requested.

 

[catkins]

I feel that if the cue ball leaves the rail and comes back it is hard to say that that is not a good hit. I can see an argument for the object ball being an issue but also think it is easy enough to see what happens but that is my opinion not from knowledge of rules

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

If you shoot into the 3 and it leaves x1 and comes back to x1 then it is a legal shot under WPA rules, but not under BCAPL/CSI rules.
Now Steve, in the rule committee does not want to go by the WPA rule, so in the future when and if the new rules are adopted it then will be a foul.
Now if the 3 travels and contacts the rail on the other side of the side pocket x2 then that is a legal shot under both rule governing bodies.
Now after the cb contacts the 3 and it leaves the rail but does not contact another rail or ball but once again comes into contact with that same rail, it is not a legal shot,
but,
If the cb leaves the rail such as you depicted and does not contact another rail or ball and then comes back into contact with the 3 and then catches that rail after contact then it is a legal shot.

Remember when the cb is not on the rail but your intended ob is frozen to the rail, then a simultaneous hit is legal, and no other rail needs to be contacted nor does the ob need to pocketed.
I believe I am correct on this, but could stand corrected if not. I do not study WPA rules. Whitey

 

[Bob Jewett]

There is a story about Efren in that situation. He jacked up, shot a masse shot thinly into the object ball, the cue ball went out and came back to the other side of the object ball and essentially put the opponent in the same position but reversed. I think Efren shot a good shot.

And contrary to what Whitey thinks, I think it is wrong, broken and counterproductive for the 1P.org rules to diverge from the WPA rules when there is no real need to. It makes one pocket players look no better than the kids down at the rec center who move the cue ball off the rail by a butt-width when it's frozen and put the cue ball back if they only move it a few inches on a warm-up stroke.

Personally, I'm in favor of doing away with the frozen ball stuff entirely. There is no need for it and it causes a lot of arguments. How about instead: Any contact on a ball frozen to a cushion will be considered to satisfy the "driving a ball to a cushion" requirement. What would it hurt?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

There is a story about Efren in that situation. He jacked up, shot a masse shot thinly into the object ball, the cue ball went out and came back to the other side of the object ball and essentially put the opponent in the same position but reversed. I think Efren shot a good shot.

And contrary to what Whitey thinks, I think it is wrong, broken and counterproductive for the 1P.org rules to diverge from the WPA rules when there is no real need to. It makes one pocket players look no better than the kids down at the rec center who move the cue ball off the rail by a butt-width when it's frozen and put the cue ball back if they only move it a few inches on a warm-up stroke.

Personally, I'm in favor of doing away with the frozen ball stuff entirely. There is no need for it and it causes a lot of arguments. How about instead: Any contact on a ball frozen to a cushion will be considered to satisfy the "driving a ball to a cushion" requirement. What would it hurt?

Bob, that is one crazy statement. If the record of our rule committee deliberations ever became public, I would be proud of every suggestion and every statement I have made. If I did not make suggestions then how could Steve ever make an informative decision, and that would make me derelict in my duties. When it comes to rules I tell it like it is, it would not do any body any good if I was a yes man to Steve or to the WPA rules.
I am no WPA yes man, when imo a wpa rule is bad I tell Steve and tell him why, and I surely do not tell him what I think he wants to here, if I was just a yes man then I would not be of much use to him, now would I.

Steve makes and has made all the decisions, I only suggest, other than that I have no influence what so ever! When and if the new rules come out, it will be all Steve. I have not wrote one line, Steve writes every word.
Steve weighs every scenario by a host of his standards, and then makes a decision. Whitey

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, that is one crazy statement. ...

And I stand by it. I guess that makes me crazy. Oh, well.

 

[lll]

BCA DEFINITIONS
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching a rail at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the Version 21/12/2007 – The Rules of Play Page 2 of 4

Version 21.12.2007table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent
See also Regulation 26, Calling Frozen Balls.
..........................
WPA rules
8.4 Driven to a Rail


A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A
ball touching a rail at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered
driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the
table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to
any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.
..............................
i found the above rules
i could not find the frozen to a rail rule in the csi version
i also couldnt find the bca rule when i went back to look but i copied and pasted it from a search

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Personally, I'm in favor of doing away with the frozen ball stuff entirely. There is no need for it and it causes a lot of arguments. How about instead: Any contact on a ball frozen to a cushion will be considered to satisfy the "driving a ball to a cushion" requirement. What would it hurt?

This is pool, the game is to pocket balls, not nurse a ball along a rail, endlessly. If there was no requirement to make a rail then when I roll up on a ball frozen to the rail then we tap, tap, tap. Tap with Jake Schaefer Jr. and see how you like it. People want to watch pool not tap tap tap, and that is why 14.1 had a nurse rule. But of course that long standing American heritage 14.1 rule is now lost to history.

If you are so profound that this is such a great rule, you should of brought it up in our rule committee deliberations, and let Steve rule on it.
But there again, you would be going against the WPA rule.
You can not admonish me, because you just did it, amazing!

Our official OP Game Rule is getting progressively longer, and this is in part of because we go by WPA, for we have had to write rules to offset their rules. Steve Italicizes them. Op.org needs there own general rules, and then they would be set in concrete, and endure, and not be continually subjected to the whims of another's rule making body. Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Here you go Larry, thanks! This is the Legal Shot Rule of BCAPL/CSI
1-19 Legal Shot (AR p. 87)
1. For a shot to be legal, the first ball contacted by the cue ball must be a legal object ball, or a simultaneous hit with a legal and illegal object ball may occur. After that contact: a. any object ball must be pocketed, or; b. any object ball or the cue ball must contact a cushion. It is a foul if one of those requirements is not met.
2. If the ball used to meet the cushion contact requirement of Rule 1-19-1-b is declared frozen to a cushion at the beginning of the shot, then that ball must leave the cushion it is frozen to and then: a. contact a cushion other than the one to which it was frozen, or; b. contact another object ball before it contacts the cushion to which it was frozen.
3. The shot detailed in Diagram 5 meets the requirements of paragraph 1-19-2 and is legal.
4. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is declared frozen immediately prior to the shot and before the shooter is down on the shot.
5. Contacting a ball frozen to a cushion does not constitute contacting that cushion.

I rewrote this rule for them for it is not complete by any means, for one example; when a ball is frozen to the cushion, it is then legal to simultaneously hit the ob and the cushion and then no further cushion contact is required nor does the ball need to be pocketed. Also any time you go to write a Legal Shot rule, it should always start with; A legal shot is a shot in which no foul occurs, that is priority #1.

They do have the simultaneous hit rule but you have to search for it throughout the complete text. I found this to be the case with many of their general rules, they were not complete within the rule, but you could find and sort out the complete rule if you really searched. A big down fall in their writings but refused to correct. Whitey

 

[lll]

whitey
maybe i am mis reading the above number 1.
number 1 above if the cue ball frozen to the rail comes off the ball that is froazen to the cue ball and all balls are frozen
the cue ball has contacted a legal ball the first part of the para graph
if it comes back to the same rail it satisfies the second part of the paragraph as it "did contact a cushion"
????

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

whitey
maybe i am mis reading the above number 1.
number 1 above if the cue ball frozen to the rail comes off the ball that is froazen to the cue ball and all balls are frozen
the cue ball has contacted a legal ball the first part of the para graph
if it comes back to the same rail it satisfies the second part of the paragraph as it "did contact a cushion"
????

Yes that is correct, providing the cb first leaves the rail it is frozen to, and then it contacts the ob, and then re-contacts the rail it was once frozen to.
Such as doing a partial masse' stroke. You can not simply roll into the ob without loosing contact with the rail, and then loose contact and regain it.

When I stated that their Legal Shot rule was incomplete; this is part of the incompleteness, when both the cb and ob are frozen to the same rail.
Or,
it is ambiguous! I found many of bcapl/csi general rules to be ambiguous. I call them slick writings. Which means; I know what I am saying and now you have to figure it out.
It is a poor way of expressing; that I know more than you, or trying to slickly express their knowledge. This is the mentality of many of the bcapl rule writings.
I hope this clears this up for you! Whitey

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If you are so profound ...

I'm sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I'm sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough.

It was plenty clear! You do not want to deviate from WPA rules in regards to OP.org general rules, but yet you want to allow contacting an object ball frozen to the rail to be a legal shot even though no rail is contacted after contacting the object ball.

I am enjoying this discussion, it is getting funnier by the minute. No worries, take care! Whitey

 

[Nick B]

Thx for all the input. I always played assuming BCAPL/CSI and didn't realize that WPA version was different (on this topic). That puts a different twist on things.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... You do not want to deviate from WPA rules in regards to OP.org general rules, but yet you want to allow contacting an object ball frozen to the rail to be a legal shot even though no rail is contacted after contacting the object ball.
...

I wasn't clear enough. I think it's better to follow the WPA rules unless there is a real good reason to deviate.

I also think the WPA rule should be changed to eliminate the frozen ball crap. "It was froze!" "No it wasn't!" "You just called it froze for my shot!" "You didn't call it for mine, so it wasn't froze!" and all of that sort of pointless stupidity. I think there is no real tippy-tap nurse safety problem with frozen balls at one pocket, but if there is I'd like to see the scenario.

I'll see what I can do about getting the WPA rule changed, since I know the former chief editor. In the meantime, I'll be going by the current rules.