Official OnePocket.org Rules Poll revised

[darmoose]

the rule book is almost complete and that means what is left is the nit picking things. and steve is our director in that decision so lets let him run with it as he pleases. unless we can determine he is unfit for the job and replace him with darmoose.

lol..........oh no you don't.......I am not built that way.......but thanks for the nomination...........

 

[vapros]

We haven't even started on a dress code and using a spit cup.

 

[NH Steve]

Thank you to those of you who have voted and commented -- keep it coming!!

 

[NH Steve]

How about some more votes here -- plenty of viewers, we could use more voters!!

 

[beatle]

ok... yes

 

[Tobermory]

To me this means the complete opposite of what you translate, Whitey.

If Mosconi intended to have the spotted OB frozen to the CB, why didn't he just say exactly that. It would have been crystal clear and undeniable.
That he would instead say 'as near as possible' seems to directly imply that it was not to be touching. Why would he take the trouble to write 'near' if he could simply have said 'frozen' or 'touching'.

you're thinking like a lawyer now...

 

[NH Steve]

you're thinking like a lawyer now...

That's funny, because although I am definitely not a lawyer, working on the rules did feel a little like that

 

[darmoose]

To me this means the complete opposite of what you translate, Whitey.

If Mosconi intended to have the spotted OB frozen to the CB, why didn't he just say exactly that. It would have been crystal clear and undeniable.
That he would instead say 'as near as possible' seems to directly imply that it was not to be touching. Why would he take the trouble to write 'near' if he could simply have said 'frozen' or 'touching'.

Not that it much matters for purposes of these rules writings, and I don't know Mosconi's level of education or manner of speaking or writing, but even a lawyer cannot ignore that Mosconi clarified in his book exactly what he meant by "as near as possible" with "(which means frozen)".......just in case anyone ever did not understand.

If you disagree, you need to recognize his clarification and explain it away...don't you think?

 

[NH Steve]

Not that it much matters for purposes of these rules writings, and I don't know Mosconi's level of education or manner of speaking or writing, but even a lawyer cannot ignore that Mosconi clarified in his book exactly what he meant by "as near as possible" with "(which means frozen)".......just in case anyone ever did not understand.

If you disagree, you need to recognize his clarification and explain it away...don't you think?

Maybe, but then again, I would like to see the actual old rules, and when they changed, because that little red book is not to be misconstrued -- it was not an actual rule book -- it was an instructional book. So if somebody has the actual 1948 vintage BCA rule on spotting, that would be more meaningful to see -- even though it is kind of irrelevant to today's pool rules.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I'll once again clarify Mosconi's book. By the way it is our bible, it was mine, as it was for all generations dating back to 1948 when it was first wrote. Mosconi of course was sponsored as were the other greats by Brunswick which controlled the newly formed Billiard Congress of America pool organization in 1948.
The rules in the Mosconi's book is, and I repeat, are the Billiard Congress of America rules, he is under contract, and he could not of course wrote anything else. They were also not allowed to play in any other tournaments that were not BCA sponsored.

I further studied our founding father of rules, Michael Phalen's rules, and discovered the rule of a ball frozen to the cue ball as a shot was listed in his 1858 book on rules. So this spotting rule may, and most likely date back to this, for as we know the first world championship of Line Up pool was in 1878, whereas balls are spotted in the fashion as a modern day spotting rule, on the long string. The only difference is now they leave a gap when the cue ball interferes.

Like I previously stated; millions upon millions of balls have been spotted frozen to balls, including the cue ball, and so back in the day of our greatest players, and going back to the great era of DeOro, they spotted balls this way. It is no big deal for me, for that is the way I spotted balls, and so did everyone else at that time. I stop playing in '73, so my memory is not clouded over many years of playing. This rule change is the first assault upon a long standing rule, that I know of. Since there have been others.

But, this is a mute subject, for Steve is not going there, he has made that very clear. The official rules are not going there.
I only bring this up, for I do not want the facts to be misconstrued. I actually wish I would of never ever brought it up, what is now 3 or so years ago.
But, it does represent history of how OP use to be played! So that is always a good thing!

You guys need to concentrate on the rules before you, for you only have a few days left to try and get in your favorable or non favorable points regarding each rule. If you want something changed or added to a rule, or if you are unclear what a rule intent is, or if it needs more clarity, now is the time. Otherwise we have nothing to base any further rule re-views on. thank you!
Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Tomorrow ends the poll on these official rule revisions, and with that ends my tenure as being on the rule committee as it pertains to the official rules.

If you are wondering what revisions were polling on for those of you that might not have participated in the official rules discussions before, or had not notice, but the main rule revisions that Steve made were within 2.3.2 Rack your own option, and he reverted back to an older writing of his on 5.1 No jump cue ball allowed , and recently he incorporated 6.6.2 Serious Fouls into the rules.
These are the main changes that are different than the last time the rules were presented, and basically what you were polled on, along with the official rules as a whole. The vote is favorable.

I put in a lot of suggestive input and I actually have a few words of my own in this doc., of which I am especially proud of and grateful that they were adopted and for the opportunity to lend a helping hand.
Whitey

 

[RedCard]

It was a Herculean effort by all those involved. Touchy questions were handled well, I don't know how it could have been fairer. It should be copyrighted but made available free of liability to any group promoting One Pocket. The tournament running expertise available from several folks here is another asset of the site that could possibly be monetized or provided at no expense to a deserving group or person to help them deal with the glitches that come up in tournaments.

 

[beatle]

ccccc

 

[vapros]

why thats how we have always done it.

Beatle, I think this will continue to be the prevailing guide-on in one-pocket games. Not to say that new rules are bad, but . . . . .

 

[Bob Jewett]

Maybe, but then again, I would like to see the actual old rules, and when they changed, ...

Here is the rule from the 1968 rule book:



Here is the rule from the 1970 rule book:



Here is the listing of the rules committee for 1970:




If anyone here is interested in the history of the rules of pool, I have extra copies of most of the rule books going back to the 1890s. Or, you can find them on Ebay and Amazon.

Both of those rule books were poorly organized. For spotting balls at 14.1 you are directed to the rules of Rotation. And both of the rules shown above are poorly worded.

 

[beatle]

ccccc

 

[NH Steve]

Here is the rule from the 1968 rule book:

View attachment 436704

Here is the rule from the 1970 rule book:

View attachment 436705

Here is the listing of the rules committee for 1970:


View attachment 436706

If anyone here is interested in the history of the rules of pool, I have extra copies of most of the rule books going back to the 1890s. Or, you can find them on Ebay and Amazon.

Both of those rule books were poorly organized. For spotting balls at 14.1 you are directed to the rules of Rotation. And both of the rules shown above are poorly worded.

Thank you Bob! I have an old Brunswick rule book from the 1890's I think, but then nothing until maybe the '68 that you quote. I was wondering when it changed -- and there it is, between '68 and '70!

But why do you suppose they said "near" in the old rules, which seems to most of us to directly conflict with "frozen"? Do you suppose it meant that if you could not get the ball to freeze, then as near as you could get it was acceptable???

 

[NH Steve]

We are looking at possibly including a few rule options somewhere -- given that players and TD's seem to want different options. So we are looking at a few, like these, that would be available kind of like a menu lol. Some are from Derby City, some are from Dennis, some are alternate rules we talked about here as well. I am open to suggestions.

*2.4.1 WPA base of ball option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate to play "base of the ball" instead of "whole ball" for compliance with WPA general rules in all ball in hand situations.

*5.2 Virtual jumped cue ball option: Players may agree, or a room owner or tournament director may stipulate that when jumping the cue ball off the table is deemed an unacceptable risk to bystanders or the facilities, the shooter may forego an actual jump to prevent a hanging game-winning ball from scoring for their opponent. In this instance, instead of an actual jumped cue ball, the hanging object ball is spotted as if it was pocketed, the shooter is assessed a foul penalty as if they jumped the cue ball off the table, and the incoming player accepts ball in hand behind the line.

*6.4.1 Offsetting owed balls option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate that whenever both players owe at least one ball, one owed foul marker is forgiven for each player so that players cannot both accumulate owed fouls. The three foul rule still applies including any forgiven owed fouls.

*6.8.1 Close proximity 45 degree option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate that elevating the cue stick 45 degrees or more reasonably avoids a double hit foul.

*9.1.1 Spot balls frozen to the cue ball option: When the cue ball interferes with the spot, the spotted ball shall be tightly frozen to the cue ball without dislodging the position of the cue ball.

*9.5.1 Spotting from the head rail: When all of the balls are located behind the head string in a BIH situation, the ball nearest the head rail may be spotted at the request of the incoming player. If two or more balls are equally close to the head rail, the shooter may designate which ball to spot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... But why do you suppose they said "near" in the old rules, which seems to most of us to directly conflict with "frozen"? ...

Because they did not know how to write clearly. Technical writing is not easy.

If you read through the rest of the rule book you will see lots of problems. It got worse over time. Some rules were given in three different ways in three different places. Some rules said the opposite of what was intended. Too often you have to go by what they surely meant.

 

[lll]

We are looking at possibly including a few rule options somewhere -- given that players and TD's seem to want different options. So we are looking at a few, like these, that would be available kind of like a menu lol. Some are from Derby City, some are from Dennis, some are alternate rules we talked about here as well. I am open to suggestions.

*2.4.1 WPA base of ball option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate to play "base of the ball" instead of "whole ball" for compliance with WPA general rules in all ball in hand situations.

*5.2 Virtual jumped cue ball option: Players may agree, or a room owner or tournament director may stipulate that when jumping the cue ball off the table is deemed an unacceptable risk to bystanders or the facilities, the shooter may forego an actual jump to prevent a hanging game-winning ball from scoring for their opponent. In this instance, instead of an actual jumped cue ball, the hanging object ball is spotted as if it was pocketed, the shooter is assessed a foul penalty as if they jumped the cue ball off the table, and the incoming player accepts ball in hand behind the line.

*6.4.1 Offsetting owed balls option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate that whenever both players owe at least one ball, one owed foul marker is forgiven for each player so that players cannot both accumulate owed fouls. The three foul rule still applies including any forgiven owed fouls.

*6.8.1 Close proximity 45 degree option: Players may agree, or a tournament director may stipulate that elevating the cue stick 45 degrees or more reasonably avoids a double hit foul.

*9.1.1 Spot balls frozen to the cue ball option: When the cue ball interferes with the spot, the spotted ball shall be tightly frozen to the cue ball without dislodging the position of the cue ball.

*9.5.1 Spotting from the head rail: When all of the balls are located behind the head string in a BIH situation, the ball nearest the head rail may be spotted at the request of the incoming player. If two or more balls are equally close to the head rail, the shooter may designate which ball to spot.

Steve I think you need to decide whether you want to draw a line in the sand and state rules as you think they should be
or as you think the majority of one pocket players would want
or codify every what if option and tell everyone play the game the way you want to just decide among yourself what variation you want to agree to
that makes everybody happy and nobody would complain
jmho
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