Matching-up choice

mr3cushion

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and if the breaks and 10/8 9/8 are worth the same to both parties then it makes absolutely no difference in which you play.

its like asking what keeps you warmer a red hat or a blue one.

and in bill's example it wasnt worth the same to each party. but may show that the ball spot is worth more than the break.
which to me is obvious.
I'm pretty sure the break is still considered to be, 1.5 balls in worth. And, the non breaker is still on, defense the first shot, if the breaker doesn't leak a ball! So, the spot Artie was getting in reality was, less than, 0.5 balls. But, with, homecourt advantage.
 
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mr3cushion

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My opinion is that there are no universal answers.

Any number of factors need to be carefully considered and taken into account. So every match up is different and anyone who says, given any two players and who knows what kind of equipment, X, Y or Z is *always* wrong or right, is mistaken. Consistently, there are always a multitude of factors to be weighted in any matchup between two players and particular conditions.

This especially applies to players who only played on/at their pet table/room and never traveled. Some guys guy were unbeatable on their home track, no matter what. Others could go anywhere and prevail, with or without adjustment.

Lou Figueroa
I'll assume the bolded text is directed toward my post. The weak BS that people been propagating for years about Artie, 'Only' playing on 1 table/pet is pure Bullshit! You weren't around I was! Red got to break to, 'both' pockets! A road player, 'Always' takes a little bit the worst of the game from jump street, 'Homecourt!' Artie's game was unassuming to the normal player, like Mosconi's straight pool game, make easy shots. Artie forced his opponents to shoot, 'Long straight in's' with no position!
 

lfigueroa

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I'll assume the bolded text is directed toward my post. The weak BS that people been propagating for years about Artie, 'Only' playing on 1 table/pet is pure Bullshit! You weren't around I was! Red got to break to, 'both' pockets! A road player, 'Always' takes a little bit the worst of the game from jump street, 'Homecourt!' Artie's game was unassuming to the normal player, like Mosconi's straight pool game, make easy shots. Artie forced his opponents to shoot, 'Long straight in's' with no position!

Well, you are correct, I wasn't there.

However, I was around other pool rooms on the West Coast like The Palace and Cochran's, and no one ever saw or had heard of him. I also don't recall reading about him in the published accounts of time, like the great series of articles SI did on the Johnston City events. And I do know from past experience that the Windy City crowd thinks a lot of their hometown and its characters, to the point of canonizing themselves and basically ignoring the rest of the country, choosing to speak as if Chicago was the epicenter of everything.

Even here, I don't recall folks discussing his exploits anywhere other than at his home room.

I did have the opportunity to watch him play JH at the DCC ten years ago. Here's my account:

#####
And I also watched the first, and last, couple of hours of the Artie -- John Henderson match. I think the tape Chicago Mike was making of the whole match will speak for itself, but my opinion is that the “perfect, no mistake, smartest 1pocket of all time” that Artie rants about all the time is a figment of his imagination. In real life, all that would appear to mostly consist of is: every time it's your shot you stare at the table for five to 10 minutes while chalking your cue; then you bunt a ball up-table to your side; and then, you do not shoot, *at anything.* Ever. IOW, with this “strategy” you’re basically relying on your opponent dropping dead out of pure exhaustion, boredom, or both.

At one point in the final game, Artie had managed to bunt all the balls near his side pocket and I whispered to Mike, “This is it! We're about to see the perfect, no-mistake 1pocket Artie has been talking about -- he’s been working on this position for the last 42 shots and now, finally, at last, he’s going to gently pull the trigger and shoot a ball and the cluster along the side rail is going to open up like some beautiful tropical flower and the balls are going to stay on his side and he’s going to run out-- it’s going to be like some ancient Kung-fu martial arts Mortal Kombat Kill Bill thing where he’s just going to gently touch his opponent with the palm of his hand and his heart is going to just stop beating and it'll be like he just dropped dead in his tracks.”

But, alas, there was none of that.

And Artie kept bunting, and John kept shooting and won. Personally, I think John deserves a big tip of the hat for hanging in there for 14 hours of Artie’s stall.
#####

Having said all that, I have no doubt AB was a great player in his time and a true terror up in your neck of the woods. But the issue I was originally speaking to was about the player who did not travel. And from what I know, he fit the bill on that count.

Lou Figueroa
 

darmoose

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since old school /12squared /and sheldon all agree the 10-8/9-8 is a bigger spot than the breaks
i have to defer to your experience and knowledge.
i would appreciate your comments on my analysis
with 10-8/9-8 you have to go to 9 on his break
so if he gets all the breaks you only have to go to 8...thats better
thats why thats a better spot to give up (ignoring the fact you have to get out of the break EVERY game )
on your break the 10-8 sort of has you playing him even and you are the better player so you should win even
here is how i come to that conclusion
the break is worth 1-2 balls (traditionally said)
so you are adding the 2 ball advantage of the break to the normal 8 you would need playing even
i would love to read your opinions on my analysis
exposing the flaws in my thinking will be very helpfull to me

This matching up discussion came up today between two guys, so let me get some opinions from you guys > Which do you think is a bigger spot, and which would you rather give up to a player who plays approx. 1-1/2 balls under you - 10-8/9-8 or all the breaks?

Old School

Old school,

Could you clarify please, if the player getting spotted had chosen to take the ball spot (instead of taking ALL the breaks), would he have had half of the breaks? My assumption was, and Larry's analysis is, that the breaks would have been split 50/50 had he chosen the ball spot.. Seems confusion about this has caused some to misunderstand and create a new match to analyze rather than your original scenario.

Analyzing giving up 10/8 in exchange for all the breaks is very different from analyzing giving up 10/8-9/8 and alternating breaks. Anybody disagree? :)
 

mr3cushion

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You are like many, of little do you know of what you speak! What You know is 100% hearsay, Your 1st hand info was from a game he played after 30 years of hiatus and in bad health.

You mention, Cochran's and the Palace, as many don't know, he busted out both pool rooms in the late 60's! The Palace alone and owner for over 10K. And he never lifted a cue. On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green. 1P, Banks, 3C, even straight pool, as Gene Nagy found out. He playing Artie $100 a game, 125-100, ran 106 and out and then 118 & out. Artie raised the bet and beat Nagy 4 in a line. When, "we' who saw Artie play, he not only wanted to beat the best players, he wanted to humiliate/destroy them. Basically, what You really know about AB and his playing would fit snuggly into an ameba's rectum!
 
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Rimfirejunkie

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Louisville Ky
You are like many, of little do you know of what you speak! What You know is 100% hearsay, Your 1st hand info was from a game he played after 30 years of hiatus and in bad health.

You mention, Cochran's and the Palace, as many don't know, he busted out both pool rooms in the late 60's! The Palace alone and owner for over 10K. And he never lifted a cue. On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green. 1P, Banks, 3C, even straight pool, as Gene Nagy found out. He playing Artie $100 a game, 125-100, ran 106 and out and then 118 & out. Artie raised the bet and beat Nagy 4 in a line. When, "we' who saw Artie play, he not only wanted to beat the best players, he wanted to humiliate/destroy them. Basically, what You really know about AB and his playing would fit snuggly into an ameba's rectum!
I never post here, but damn are you grating.
 

BRLongArm

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I would like anyone to show me how they can manipulate the rack to make a ball or even improve the spread.

Lou Figueroa
It can happen. I saw Russian Kenny's girlfriend rack the balls and they either made or hung the corner ball 8 out of 10 times. Anything can be mastered with practice. Go give Corey Deuel a week and he'll be the one pocket champion of the world. He already forced changes in 9 ball and 8 ball because he mastered the break.
 

unoperro

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You are like many, of little do you know of what you speak! What You know is 100% hearsay, Your 1st hand info was from a game he played after 30 years of hiatus and in bad health.

You mention, Cochran's and the Palace, as many don't know, he busted out both pool rooms in the late 60's! The Palace alone and owner for over 10K. And he never lifted a cue. On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green. 1P, Banks, 3C, even straight pool, as Gene Nagy found out. He playing Artie $100 a game, 125-100, ran 106 and out and then 118 & out. Artie raised the bet and beat Nagy 4 in a line. When, "we' who saw Artie play, he not only wanted to beat the best players, he wanted to humiliate/destroy them. Basically, what You really know about AB and his playing would fit snuggly into an ameba's rectum!
Amoeba don't have a rectum , they eliminate waste thru exocytosis. I thought everyone knew that?
 

lfigueroa

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You are like many, of little do you know of what you speak! What You know is 100% hearsay, Your 1st hand info was from a game he played after 30 years of hiatus and in bad health.

You mention, Cochran's and the Palace, as many don't know, he busted out both pool rooms in the late 60's! The Palace alone and owner for over 10K. And he never lifted a cue. On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green. 1P, Banks, 3C, even straight pool, as Gene Nagy found out. He playing Artie $100 a game, 125-100, ran 106 and out and then 118 & out. Artie raised the bet and beat Nagy 4 in a line. When, "we' who saw Artie play, he not only wanted to beat the best players, he wanted to humiliate/destroy them. Basically, what You really know about AB and his playing would fit snuggly into an ameba's rectum!

I feel that even years removed from their best game, experienced players can always observe a player and draw some insights and conclusions about that player's game, and what I saw did not make much of an impression.

So, maybe he did do some financial damage at The Palace but you say he didn't pick up a cue to do that. Are we not talking about his pool playing? And while GN was an incredible 14.1 player, I believe it is a well know fact that while he might run 2-300 practicing, early in his career he developed a severe case of nerves that precluded him from ever realizing his true potential in tournaments and cash games. So while AB might have won a couple of games he was never at the same level of technical expertise as GN.

You also say, “ On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green.” But my original point was about players who never left the safe confines of their home room, so you’ve pretty much buttressed my contention that he stayed close to home.

Lastly, I don't know much about amoeba rectums (other than knowing how to spell amoeba correctly) so I shall defer to your obviously superior knowledge of rectums.

Lou Figueroa
 
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mr3cushion

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Amoeba don't have a rectum , they eliminate waste thru exocytosis. I thought everyone knew that?
I'm quite positive, You get the idea!
I feel that even years removed from their best game, experienced players can always observe a player and draw some insights and conclusions about that player's game, and what I saw did not make much of an impression.

So, maybe he did do some financial damage at The Palace but you say he didn't pick up a cue to do that. Are we not talking about his pool playing? And while GN was an incredible 14.1 player, I believe it is a well know fact that while he might run 2-300 practicing, early in his career he developed a severe case of nerves that precluded him from ever realizing his true potential in tournaments and cash games. So while AB might have won a couple of games he was never at the same level of technical expertise as GN.

You also say, “ On one hand, I can count the number of 'road players' that left Bensingers in general with money won! No matter what game on the green.” But my original point was about players who never left the safe confines of their home room, so you’ve pretty much buttressed my contention that he stayed close to home.

Lastly, I don't know much about amoeba rectums (other than knowing how to spell amoeba correctly) so I shall defer to your obviously superior knowledge of rectums.

Lou Figueroa
Your clocking of players, 'in prime speed' 30 years later playing 1P, is not info anyone should follow! When a player is on the road, the entire trip is devoted to create , 'financial damage' every spot you go! When GN played AB, he was likely in the top dozen in the country. BTW, when AB asked Gene to raise the bet, GN looked at him like he was crazy! After the match, Freddy asked, "WTF, I quit betting on you, why raise the bet?" AB replied, "I didn't like the way he ran the balls!"

In the early - late 60's, AB traveled all over. In the early 70's - 80's in Chicago AB was betting so much on sports, pool couldn't compare for him to go out of his way to play! But, he didn't duck anyone, even when not ever playing, that wanted action!

There's only a handful of us left that have been around/bet and followed AB's pool career since the mid 60's. Larry Schwartz, George Michaels, Joey Gold, myself, Dr. Bill. What people hear is one thing, what certain people know, is way another! During Artie's prime, which may have coincided with Boston Shorty's, Shorty may have been the better, 'All around player in the country!' Straight pool, 9 ball, 1P, Banks, and 3, Artie next, Not withstanding Harold Worst, GOAT all around in his.
 
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gulfportdoc

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In my experience Artie was a 1P player like no other. He had a unique concept, approach and style to his play. I never saw him in his prime, but I have had a couple of sessions with him after he retired, and he opened my eyes to a style and method of play that I never would have discovered on my own.

When Freddie put him up for HOF, my initial reactions was that he was simply trying to promote a home boy. Later I changed my mind, and realized that he should be in there with the other greats.

I watched a good bit of the match he played as partners with Bill I. against Henderson. His moves were excellent and innovative, but he was reluctant to shoot anything more than a moderate ball pocketing shot, although I did watch at least one 7 & out. I talked with him after the match, and he said he just couldn't make a ball anymore, so he had to pass on shots that he would have taken in an earlier era. He was 30 years past his prime and hadn't played in all that time. I'd love to have seen him in the '60s-'70s.
 

cincy_kid

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Old school,

Could you clarify please, if the player getting spotted had chosen to take the ball spot (instead of taking ALL the breaks), would he have had half of the breaks? My assumption was, and Larry's analysis is, that the breaks would have been split 50/50 had he chosen the ball spot.. Seems confusion about this has caused some to misunderstand and create a new match to analyze rather than your original scenario.

Analyzing giving up 10/8 in exchange for all the breaks is very different from analyzing giving up 10/8-9/8 and alternating breaks. Anybody disagree? :)
The main post was about which spot is greater, so if each player had one of the spots and they normally play even, whoever wins with the spots would be the better spot IMO.
 

lfigueroa

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I'm quite positive, You get the idea!

Your clocking of players, 'in prime speed' 30 years later playing 1P, is not info anyone should follow! When a player is on the road, the entire trip is devoted to create , 'financial damage' every spot you go! When GN played AB, he was likely in the top dozen in the country. BTW, when AB asked Gene to raise the bet, GN looked at him like he was crazy! After the match, Freddy asked, "WTF, I quit betting on you, why raise the bet?" AB replied, "I didn't like the way he ran the balls!"

In the early - late 60's, AB traveled all over. In the early 70's - 80's in Chicago AB was betting so much on sports, pool couldn't compare for him to go out of his way to play! But, he didn't duck anyone, even when not ever playing, that wanted action!

There's only a handful of us left that have been around/bet and followed AB's pool career since the mid 60's. Larry Schwartz, George Michaels, Joey Gold, myself, Dr. Bill. What people hear is one thing, what certain people know, is way another! During Artie's prime, which may have coincided with Boston Shorty's, Shorty may have been the better, 'All around player in the country!' Straight pool, 9 ball, 1P, Banks, and 3, Artie next, Not withstanding Harold Worst, GOAT all around in his.

What I said is that you can always get a sense of how a player might have played in their prime by watching them at the table, even many years removed from their prime.

And of course he was always willing to play in Chicago -- that was my point. Equally, everyone you mention are/were Chicago lads. Try and find players on the West or East Coast or the lower Midwest who felt the same. There is no denying he was an accomplished player. However, every area of the country has their heroes and some of them would have swum a ROS to play AB. At least that's what one champion said when asked.

Lou Figueroa
 
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