Matching-up choice

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,634
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
One little question, for those that rather give up the break than balls, why do most events make the breaker rerack the balls if one is made on the break?
 

lfigueroa

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
1,961
As a practical matter, I don't think starting from a defensive position every single game is so great.

I'd rather give up the balls.

Lou Figueroa
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,498
From
New Braunfels tx.
You'll find the breaker will get into a groove in a long session, his break will get better and better.
In an even game I think I'd rather take the break and give 10/8 9/8 I know it's close but I don't like being on defense every game.
 

Thecoats

Active Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
41
From
Kansas City, MO
I am so used to playing from behind, the ball spot just feels like another game to me, versus being jammed up by a great break over and over. That can get mentally challenging. Now if I know my opponent is a notoriously bad breaker I might go that direction, but generally I would lean toward giving up the ball spot as most players that are within a ball or two of me would zero in on the break pretty quickly.
 

sheldon

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
173
From
Springfield Oregon
With the people I play, and even with the pros, if you look at the win/loss statistics and how often the breaker wins, it usually favors the breaker less than you'd think it should. My thinking is that giving up balls might be a bigger factor.
(I've never been wrong) <------ possible sarcasm
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,076
From
Baltimore, MD
One little question, for those that rather give up the break than balls, why do most events make the breaker rerack the balls if one is made on the break?
It is to protect against manipulating the rack for an added advantage when playing "rack your own". Introducing the "rerack" rule here in a discussion evaluating or comparing two different spots for matching up is like comparing pears and bananas......... :ROFLMAO:
 

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,634
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
It is to protect against manipulating the rack for an added advantage when playing "rack your own". Introducing the "rerack" rule here in a discussion evaluating or comparing two different spots for matching up is like comparing pears and bananas......... :ROFLMAO:
That statement is ridiculous! Any grown men/players know how to check the rack where they can both agree it's fine! If that is Your reason, you need to play a better class of players! Take that up with the OP.
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
10,856
From
Gulfport, Mississippi
With the people I play, and even with the pros, if you look at the win/loss statistics and how often the breaker wins, it usually favors the breaker less than you'd think it should. My thinking is that giving up balls might be a bigger factor.
(I've never been wrong) <------ possible sarcasm
I think you're right, Sheldon. For the pros, getting the break is less of an advantage than with amateurs. Seems to me I tallied what percentage of the time that the breaker won in a series of pro matches. I believe it was about 55% of the time-- maybe a little more often. But for amateurs it's probably more like 65%.
 

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,634
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
I think you're right, Sheldon. For the pros, getting the break is less of an advantage than with amateurs. Seems to me I tallied what percentage of the time that the breaker won in a series of pro matches. I believe it was about 55% of the time-- maybe a little more often. But for amateurs it's probably more like 65%.
I'll take a 5%-15% edge every time I play!

The only player I ever knew who wasn't terribly concerned about giving up the break was, Artie. He got out of the break as good as any living human! That's why he let Jersey Red have all the breaks and he got 10/8. Artie was stealing! This was in 68 or 69.
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
10,856
From
Gulfport, Mississippi
It is to protect against manipulating the rack for an added advantage when playing "rack your own". Introducing the "rerack" rule here in a discussion evaluating or comparing two different spots for matching up is like comparing pears and bananas......... :ROFLMAO:
You might very well be right. The possibility of a manipulated rack may have been a large consideration for spotting a made ball on the break. But IMO the best reason is that pocketing a ball on the break is pure luck, whereas 1P is supposed to be a game of skill. The breaker already has an advantage, so he should not have the added excess advantage of getting a lucky ball --and potential runout-- on the break.
 

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,634
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
You might very well be right. The possibility of a manipulated rack may have been a large consideration for spotting a made ball on the break. But IMO the best reason is that pocketing a ball on the break is pure luck, whereas 1P is supposed to be a game of skill. The breaker already has an advantage, so he should not have the added excess advantage of getting a lucky ball --and potential runout-- on the break.
Doc; not as much luck as you might think of hanging or making a ball on the break! Just like in all games, it's a part of the whole that has to be practiced! 9/10 ball players practice the break by the hours, is it luck if they make a ball? I think not. In 1P, just like in straight pool, the break is a, 'controlled offensive/defensive' break.
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,498
From
New Braunfels tx.
I think you're right, Sheldon. For the pros, getting the break is less of an advantage than with amateurs. Seems to me I tallied what percentage of the time that the breaker won in a series of pro matches. I believe it was about 55% of the time-- maybe a little more often. But for amateurs it's probably more like 65%.
55% of the time rotating the breaks, let one of those good players break all the time and you'll see a different %
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,066
From
baton rouge, la
Apropos of nothing, I remember clocking 115 games on my collection of videos and the difference was only 58/57 for the breaker. Getting a read on 1000 games would be a tedious job, unless someone is already doing it, but it would be a very handy thing to know.
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,076
From
Baltimore, MD
That statement is ridiculous! Any grown men/players know how to check the rack where they can both agree it's fine! If that is Your reason, you need to play a better class of players! Take that up with the OP.
....and if that statement were true we'd still be playing like we played for decades, opponent racks for the breaker. Rack your own would never have become a "thing", first in the rotation games and then in one pocket.... :rolleyes:
 

Thecoats

Active Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
41
From
Kansas City, MO
Doc; not as much luck as you might think of hanging or making a ball on the break! Just like in all games, it's a part of the whole that has to be practiced! 9/10 ball players practice the break by the hours, is it luck if they make a ball? I think not. In 1P, just like in straight pool, the break is a, 'controlled offensive/defensive' break.
I play a match with the same opponent a couple times a month and we generally play 10 - 15 hours and we usually make it on the break 4-6 times between us both. One night a couple months back I made one on the break 11 times and once four times in a row and he never made it. My back was tired from all the extra racking. LOL

I think it is a skill to get it close and maybe a little luck to make it, kind of like putts over 25 feet.

-don
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,076
From
Baltimore, MD
You might very well be right. The possibility of a manipulated rack may have been a large consideration for spotting a made ball on the break. But IMO the best reason is that pocketing a ball on the break is pure luck, whereas 1P is supposed to be a game of skill. The breaker already has an advantage, so he should not have the added excess advantage of getting a lucky ball --and potential runout-- on the break.

Doc,

Did you ever hear of reracking after a ball was made on the break when they weren't playing rack your own? I never heard of rerack until this rack your own thing came about. Where I play, the only time anyone brings up the rerack rule is if the other guy suggests rack your own. When we play opponent racks ofr the shooter, rerack never comes up.:unsure:
 

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,634
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
I play a match with the same opponent a couple times a month and we generally play 10 - 15 hours and we usually make it on the break 4-6 times between us both. One night a couple months back I made one on the break 11 times and once four times in a row and he never made it. My back was tired from all the extra racking. LOL

I think it is a skill to get it close and maybe a little luck to make it, kind of like putts over 25 feet.

-don
100% And, getting out of the break is a practiced skill also. In the course of dozens of breaks, there is always this same shot that pops up when the break is hit a little too hard. Anyone know what that shot is?
 

lfigueroa

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
1,961
It is to protect against manipulating the rack for an added advantage when playing "rack your own". Introducing the "rerack" rule here in a discussion evaluating or comparing two different spots for matching up is like comparing pears and bananas......... :ROFLMAO:

I would like anyone to show me how they can manipulate the rack to make a ball or even improve the spread.

Lou Figueroa
 

sorackem

Well-Known-Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
977
From
N.CA
just like in straight pool, the break is a, 'controlled offensive/defensive' break.
The standard Straight Pool break as I know it is strictly a defensive shot. I practiced that break a great deal 30 years ago.
The only way it could be considered offense is that you didn't give them the same solid rack to play on their first shot.
 
Top