Legal Shot Discussion!

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/8DueASY5E3VFZf9c8 For information; WPA when the ob is frozen to the rail the cue ball does not have to hit the rail if the ob dribbles in an out of contact with the rail, no other rail contact or pocketing of ball is required.
Note:
1. I wanted to go over this with the members for I am realizing that players may not know that a simultaneous hit of object ball and rail is a legal shot, and no further rail contact or pocketing of the ball is required. There might be some players that think you have to contact the ob first and then contact the rail, and not know about the simultaneous hit rule. This is understandable for rule making bodies have neglected to emphasize this. Bcapl has it in their AR's, hard to find.
2. Now, if the cb contacts the rail first prior to contacting the ob then a rail must be legally contacted by the cb or ob, or a ball pocketed.
Note; see the difference in contacting simultaneously vs. rail first!
3. When the cb and ob are frozen to the same rail then to shoot directly into the ob would IMO constitute a rail first contact and thus rule line 2 would kick in.
This scenario is interesting, for no one has depicted this shot before in their general rules, and I am very interested in what our members think the legal requirements of this shot should be, or is.

For general info, Bcapl is the general rules that govern DCC and they do not allow the ob to dribble in and out of contact with the same rail it was frozen to, to be a legal shot.

This is general ideas of what constitutes a legal shot when the ob is frozen to the rail, for discussion.
Whitey
 
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gulfportdoc

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/8DueASY5E3VFZf9c8 For information; WPA when the ob is frozen to the rail the cue ball does not have to hit the rail if the ob dribbles in an out of contact with the rail, no other rail contact or pocketing of ball is required.
Note:
1. I wanted to go over this with the members for I am realizing that players may not know that a simultaneous hit of object ball and rail is a legal shot, and no further rail contact or pocketing of the ball is required. There might be some players that think you have to contact the ob first and then contact the rail, and not know about the simultaneous hit rule. This is understandable for rule making bodies have neglected to emphasize this. Bcapl has it in their AR's, hard to find.
...
That's the first I've heard of that WPA rule. I, like many, assumed that the CB or OB had to hit any rail after contact. I guess their thinking is that if one shoots into a frozen ball, there usually is a tiny double kiss, which would constitute a rail after contact.
 

beatle

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is the long rail considered two rails or one.?

so if i am at one end of the table with cue ball and object ball on the long rail and i shoot the object ball all the way down the table but come up short of the pocket. is it a foul.
 

mr3cushion

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That's the first I've heard of that WPA rule. I, like many, assumed that the CB or OB had to hit any rail after contact. I guess their thinking is that if one shoots into a frozen ball, there usually is a tiny double kiss, which would constitute a rail after contact.
There's literally hundreds angles to shot into a, 'frozen' ball with the CB and Not get a kiss.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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is the long rail considered two rails or one.?

so if i am at one end of the table with cue ball and object ball on the long rail and i shoot the object ball all the way down the table but come up short of the pocket. is it a foul.
No foul. Long rails separated by the side pocket are considered separate rails. If ob is frozen to one long rail and crosses over the side pocket and contacts the other long rail it is a legal shot. It is a rule pointed out by Mike Shamos, quite a few years ago.
thanks, for the question because it generally is not made clear in general rules, but bcapl has this rule and diagramed.

Back in the day when I was communicating with Mike Shamos on rules, this is one of two rules he got adopted out of what he states was 150 rule suggestions. I do not know what the other rule was.
Whitey
 
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Bob Jewett

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is the long rail considered two rails or one.?

so if i am at one end of the table with cue ball and object ball on the long rail and i shoot the object ball all the way down the table but come up short of the pocket. is it a foul.
It's currently considered two. In a previous set of rules, if a ball was frozen to the point of the side pocket and the shot just rattled it between the points, you didn't get credit for the rail. That was, of course, goofy and broken.

Under the WPA rules you get credit for rail contact if at some point during the shot and after first ball-ball contact, some ball is not touching a rail and then touches a rail. The WPA rules do not specify the reason for returning to the rail the ball may have been frozen to, such as masse or table roll or hitting some ball near the rail or getting caught in the rail groove or passing across the side pocket. There is no good reason to get into those details. The ball is not touching the rail and then it touches the rail. That's enough. Don't make it complicated.

In the several discussions of this rule most people ignore the reason for the rule. Maybe they should think about the reason.
 

Bob Jewett

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... I guess their thinking is that if one shoots into a frozen ball, there usually is a tiny double kiss, which would constitute a rail after contact.
No. Absolutely not the intention of the rule. In fact a double kiss does not return the OB back to the cushion. High speed video shows that the OB is still partly in the rail when the double kiss occurs. It does not leave the rail before contacting the cue ball a second time.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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is a mase shot a legal hit so you get cue ball off the rail and than back to the same rail?
Catkins, I believe your question is directed towards my video example of cb and ob frozen to the same rail, and I took the cb in hand to represent a subtle masse' shot, where the cb leaves the rail and arches over and contacts the ob then back to the same rail.
Yes, I believe this to be legal, for the cb leaves the rail and contacts the ball and then the rail.

The reason I did it with my hand is because this is a very hard shot to pull off. I have not worked on this shot, not sure if there is a easy way to pull it off.
As you can tell I have put some thought into this scenario.
It is really a good question, and worthy of members discussing it.

Larry told me about how he seen Efren being close to and on the wrong side of an ob with both the cb and ob on or close to the foot rail, and Efren did a masse' out and around contacting the ob on the other side and he ended up on the other side of the ob with his cb.
What a fantastic shot, only a grand masters could pull off.
thanks, Whitey
 
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gulfportdoc

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No. Absolutely not the intention of the rule. In fact a double kiss does not return the OB back to the cushion. High speed video shows that the OB is still partly in the rail when the double kiss occurs. It does not leave the rail before contacting the cue ball a second time.
I agree. I was simply trying to surmise what the WPA's thinking was by formulating that rule.
 

gulfportdoc

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Larry told me about how he seen Efren being close to and on the wrong side of an ob with both the cb and ob on or close to the foot rail, and Efren did a masse' out and around contacting the ob on the other side and he ended up on the other side of the ob with his cb.
What a fantastic shot, only a grand masters could pull off.
thanks, Whitey
Morro Paez used that shot against me during a tournament match at the Reno Open in 1996. He was frozen to the rail, and he full-masse'd the CB in a "U" to come around an intervening ball in order to complete a safety. After the match I asked him what kind of tip he was using. He said it was a Moori medium. I switched...:) But of course it was the tip, but his excellent stroke.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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That was a legal shot for sure. You the man, Whitey!!
Thanks Doc, I too can see no reason that this shot would not be considered legal, for it is not different than a normal shot into a ball frozen to a rail.

Well we have had a 100 views and no one has disputed that a simultaneous hit of ob and rail when the cb is frozen to the rail, is a legal shot, and no other rail contact or pocketing is required.
I believe a good rule of thumb when the ob is frozen to the rail is that a rail first contact prior to contacting the ball is a foul unless a rail can be legally contacted, or a ball pocketed.

Thanks members for the responses, and making this a good thread!
I appreciate it! Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/PffYqttteoGUzCRA7
Well, I thought I had covered every aspect of a legal shot but I forgot when a ball is frozen to another rail.
So what do you guys think, do you think contacting a ball frozen to another rail should be legal or not legal!

I also hope I got the point across on calling the ob frozen to the cb. It is one of those verbal declarations that if not called and even though you did a legal shot, your opponent can justifiable call a foul! You have no recourse, it is a foul.

As you can see through this thread there is a lot of disciplines in what is considered a legal shot. It would take quite a long word count to completely cover the Legal Shot rule.
Whitey
 

mr3cushion

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How about this scenario, OB is frozen to the cushion, CB is only 1-1.5" from OB. You shoot Very softly with extreme 6 O'clock and use a , 'nip draw' bridge. CB doesn't contact a rail and the OB doesn't get to the pocket . What's the deal?



Foul-no-foul.jpg
 
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beatle

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the old rule which i remember that was always played with no arguments was if the object ball was frozen to a rail the cueball had to hit the object ball and go to any rail after that. or drive the object ball to a different rail if the cueball didnt go to a rail.
 
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