Is Fats a fit?

jay helfert

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SJDinPHX said:
The Fat's promoter's, all the way from Jay, Freddy, and on down to the Grey Ghost, are missing the entire thrust of this dialogue.

No one is saying Fat's was not a great promoter/con man/etc., but some of us are trying to point out... that WITHOUT the movie, Fats would have languished in obscurity, just like ALL the other great player's, con men, and hustler's, that ALL of us "insider's", have been privy to forever.

Whatever the VERY SMALL circle of pool enthusiasts thought, Fatty would NEVER have become a household name, WITHOUT the movie.

We can argue about his playing skills, or his lack thereof. We can argue about whether Tevis had him in mind when he wrote the book..as GG said we can argue about what he would have been, had TV been mainstream when Fat's was in his prime, which is really a stretch, because TV never really gave a s--t about pool anyway.

The bottom line is 99.9 % of the people in this country NEVER even heard of "Minnesota, Triple smart, or NY Fat's" (or for damn sure Rudolph Wanderone Jr).....UNTIL AFTER 1961.

After the movie, he became a name synonamous with pool...for generations to come.

I personally loved the character he was, but I resent Steve Booth saying my life would have been different without Fat's notariety. My life decisions had NOTHING to do with the the success of the movie..or the Fat man.

The movie "The Hustler" was the catalyist that created the resurgence of pool during my day. Fatty was just the one who was able to capitalize on it the most. He kept it alive for a little longer, and I can appreciate that...but when the TCOM movie came out (in the 80's)...he was just a footnote.

And Lastly, I voted, and promoted him, for ANY HOF award befitting of his accomplishments.
In fact I think he deserves "special" recognition of some kind. But it amazes me to see how many choose to ignore, what a REAL GOOD break he got... in 1961.

He may have deserved it...but it was still a Hell of a leg up. Where is the argument in that ?

Sorry Dick. You don't get to rewrite history. What happened, happened. It's like discussing the chicken and the egg. Fats saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. And more importantly he pulled it off. I doubt anyone else could have, given the circumstances.

No one was able to capitalize on the name Fast Eddie, even though a few tried. They didn't have the gift for promotion like Fats had. Once again he was a unique character, and who knows, if there hadn't have been a movie he may have found another way into the limelight. One appearance on TV talk show and he may have been rolling.
 

stevelomako

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SJDinPHX said:
SJD <---with all my "erroneous" statements, I still wish Steve had answered my "ONE" valid question, before he quit speaking to me..;) (I'll bet Beardman is forming a blistering answer for me...take your time Fred.) :) :)

I'll kind of answer your question for him.

I voted for Fats every year. The Fat man should have been in with the first group and if not the second group but if people dont know shit about players then it aint gonna happen. Most of the time they play follow the leader.

Good example this year is how can Buddy Hall and yourself get in before Hopkins and Parica??? This comment is definately nothing personal because you and Buddy should be in, (you was a killa when you played and Buddy was a tournament player)....but in my opinion not before two guys that played it way more for longer (action and tournaments) than either of you two.

I've seen and heard more stuff and more stories about players, roadies, champions and action guys from more players, champions and old-timers than just about anybody in the country!! I'll follow the Beard thru a mine field defending Fats on this one. I know what I was told about Fats from Alton "Baby face" Whitlow and Corn and Kilroy just to name a few.

That said, my votes this year will be:

Hopkins
Parica
Fatty

thats it, I dont go nuts and vote for almost everybody.



Also, here's my pick for Lifetime in Action.

Paul "Jew Paul" Bruesloff


Love ya Dick, hope yer at DCC this year.
 

jay helfert

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SJDinPHX said:
lll,

#1. If you mean best player, NO... I doubt he was ever in the top ten at any point in his life.
If you mean getting the cash, YES...he was one of, if not, the best.

#2. Hasn't anyone noticed...FAT'S promoted FAT'S...did pool come along for the ride after he gained notoriety ?...YES. One pocket specifically...NO.... It just happened to be his favorite game.

We all seem to look at it differently, my opinion is just that....my opinion.
Not trying to be evasive, but you must admit...it is a hard thing to pin down. Apparantly those who idolized Fatty, don't want to listen to anything but HIS rhetoric...and thats THEIR prerogotive.

Fats did promote Fats, and very well I might add. He also promoted pool at every exhibition and appearance he ever did. "Pool is the greatest game on earth!" He would proclaim to all present, in person and on TV. He also frequently launched into a dissertation on why pool was such a great game and so hard to play. Sorry Dick, I was there. I heard it and I saw it.
 

jay helfert

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SJDinPHX said:
Greyghost said:
GG man, I don't think you realize, you just re-enforced what I've been saying all along.
"Titanic was not in a movie, and that don't make him any less Titanic... TO THE PEOPLE VERSED IN THE GAME/HUSTLE/HISTORY of billiards as a whole" ...those are your own words.

Your words are very true...no one is talking about people, "versed in the game"...Of course "WE" all knew who Titanic and Fat's were. You have got to wake up to the fact that "WE" are a very, very, small minority, and NO ONE outside of "US" would ever have heard of Minnesota Fat's had it not been for a highly successful movie, with big name stars, that the public adored.
The movie was more about life and morality anyway... pool was just a vehicle to tell the story, just like "The Raging Bull" used boxing.

Titanic (who was never even known for his pool skills) WAS a legend to you and me...and guy's like US, but he died in relative obscurity. Had it made national news, I would have tried to attend the funeral. He and his son Tommy, and I were quite good friends in his later years.

Larger than life figure that Ti was, he was unknown to people outside of "OUR" lifestyle, and certainly NEVER became a houshold name. He, even more than Fat's had a tremendous life story to tell...but nobody ever got around to writing a best selling book, or making a movie about it.

I guess you just don't want to believe the same fate would have befallen Fatty, had it not been for "The Hustler".

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't bet big $$$ on it being right. Stop the next person on the street, ( a few blocks away from the pool hall..) and ask if they've ever heard of Billy Incardone, or Ronnie Allen, or Grady Matthew's, or Rudolph Wanderone. What are the odds you get a blank stare ??
Then ask them if they've ever heard of "Minnesota Fat's"...If they're old enough...a picture of Jackie Gleason will jump into their head, and they'll say "Yeah, sure I have, hasn't everybody" ?... I rest my case.

Night all.

In his prime (the 60's, 70's and 80's), Minnesota Fats (Wanderone) was as well known as Gleason and just as recognizable.
 

jay helfert

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CaliRed said:
Who would ever of thunk that a Fats thread would have brought so many passionate responses from our friends here at onepocket.org?

The debate rages about how well he played, whether Tevis had him in mind when he wrote his book, whether Fats would have been "Fats" if there was no book, etc;.....

Let us all take a moment, close our eyes and picture Mr. Fats responding to each reply in this thread.:D No matter how passionate you felt about something, he would have surely cut thru all the crap and told you about HIM.

And you would have ended up liking it too:)

If Fats could talk for himself, he would be leading us all around by the nose. I'm telling you the guy was in a class by himself. He single handedly won over the judge after the Johnston City bust. True story! He got up on the stand and launched into a dialogue about gambling and hustlers that won everybody over. He convinced the judge that the pool players were no more hustlers than anyone else who sells something or works for a living to get ahead. After he was done testifying, the judge threw the case out and the pool players got their money back. No one else could have pulled that off. NO ONE!
 

jay helfert

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gulfportdoc said:
Well evidently this is not the case. George Jansco made the decision to have a hustler's tournament, the World's One Pocket Billiards Tournament, prior to the release of The Huster. None of the crowd that had anything to do with the tournament idea had any notion of the upcoming movie. The film was released on September 25, 1961.

R.A. Dyer in his well researched book, Hustler Days writes, "The idea first came to Shriver [Earl], like an epiphany, although it took George Jansco to make the idea reality. 'We were drinking beer and I remember Earl telling him [George] that he would call a few people and there would be a lot of action,' recalled Squirrel. ...Earl loved the idea and Squirrel loved the idea and Georgie loved it too. And so did New York Fats, down in Du Quoin, just sixty miles away. They called his fat ass straightaway."

"At roughly the same time that Georgie, Shriver, and the Squirrel began work on what would become America's most colorful pool tournaments, Twentieth Century Fox began work on The Hustler."

"There is strong evidence that Georgie, Earl, and the Squirrel knew nothing of The Hustler when their mortar shell idea for a pool tournament struck them. The bartender and his pool-shooting buddies conducted the competition after the film's release, but Squirrel, George Jansco's daughter, and others later recalled that planning began before the movie."

And this regarding Wanderone's Minnesota Fats hoax from JoAnn Jansco: "We were sitting in the J & J, and Fats was playing pool with my dad, recalled JoAnn. David asked me where the movie was playing, and my dad said it was at the drive-in the Egyptian, out in Heron, Illinois. And then my dad told Fats --and I'll never forget this-- my dad said, 'You ought to go over there and set up a stand and claim to be Minnesota Fats ...He just kept telling him and telling him, said JoAnn. Wanderone, by then, had resided in little Egypt for nearly two decades. he was semiretired, well past his prime, had very little money. In fact, he was broke just as often as not. he'd spent his life as a pool hustler but had very little to show for it. 'Go out there,' hissed Jansco. 'Just go out there. Do it'."

Doc

The first Johnston City "tournament" was what they used to call a hustlers jamboree. They had one every year in Louisville around the Kentucky Derby and in Hot Springs, AR when the racing was going on. It was a chance for all the hustlers to get together and compare notes and gamble among themselves. Of course, if a few suckers got in the way, they got chopped up. Derby City is the modern equivalent of a hustlers jamboree.
 

jay helfert

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SJDinPHX said:
Very interesting find Doc. So it looks like it was more of a coincidence, timing wise, huh ?

I guess we'll always wonder if Jansco's efforts, would have become nothing more than a well organized "Hustler's Get together", instead of becoming a well attended, popular event, by both player's and spectator's, as the years went on.

The success of the movie, could also be why Jim Mckay and WWOS, did not show up until the following year.

Sheds some new light on Fat's role too, doesn't it ? (if accurate...who knows for sure)

SJD <---with all my "erroneous" statements, I still wish Steve had answered my "ONE" valid question, before he quit speaking to me..;) (I'll bet Beardman is forming a blistering answer for me...take your time Fred.) :) :)

Fats was already famous by the time WWOS came to Johnston City. He never played in any of those all around events but WWOS saw fit to mention that he was there and show him on TV. Bottom line on why I voted for Fats induction into the HOF. He was a legendary road player and gambler AND he was a great promoter of the game for over thirty years!
 
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jay helfert

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Cowboy Dennis said:
jay helfert said:
Yeah, but I'll bet he never slept with Audrey Meadows.

He didn't sleep with Etta Jame's mother either. Fat's told me one time that was all so much BS. His exact words were that she wasn't his type.
 

SJDinPHX

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jay helfert said:
SJDinPHX said:
In his prime (the 60's, 70's and 80's), Minnesota Fats (Wanderone) was as well known as Gleason and just as recognizable.

Jay,

You have been quite successful in the pool world, and know more about the "inside" of it, and have known more players, up close and personal than I ever have, or ever will. I will admit that up front.

That also appears to mean, you have immersed yourself in that world, so much, as to be blinded to the fact, that just because YOU and I, and everybody in the "pool world" knew Fats, EVERYBODY must know him.
You stated, "The world knew him as well as a guy, like Jackie Gleason", who was a real, live icon as a celebrity for almost his entire life. I can't believe you made that statement.

I don't know if you want to take the time to read this entire thread, but you are wrong if you think I am anti-Fat's. The difference of opinion came about, as to how much his twilight years were affected by the movie.

Take a second and re-read the last paragraph of Doc's post, (#159) where he quotes Dyer, quoting Joanne Jansco I believe it was...why did you choose to ignore that passage in your response ? Unless Joanne is lying...it pretty well says it all..doesn't it ? It reads;....

"And this regarding Wanderone's Minnesota Fats hoax from JoAnn Jansco: "We were sitting in the J & J, and Fats was playing pool with my dad, recalled JoAnn. David asked me where the movie was playing, and my dad said it was at the drive-in the Egyptian, out in Heron, Illinois. And then my dad told Fats --and I'll never forget this-- my dad said, 'You ought to go over there and set up a stand and claim to be Minnesota Fats ...He just kept telling him and telling him, said JoAnn. Wanderone, by then, had resided in little Egypt for nearly two decades. he was semiretired, well past his prime, had very little money. In fact, he was broke just as often as not. he'd spent his life as a pool hustler but had very little to show for it. 'Go out there,' hissed Jansco. 'Just go out there. Do it'."

Does that sound like a guy who was an "on top of the world" celebrity in 1961 ?...Not to anybody I know it doesn't.

I do emphatically agree...NO ONE could have got more milage, out of what he was basically "kissed into",...than Fatty.

By the way, I think Steve Booth may be the only one who can verify this (if he wants to) But I also voted for Fat's, Buddy, and Parica.

Also in personal conversations with several regular posters on here, I have stated that I am embarrased that I am ahead of Parica or Hopkin's in the HOF poll thus far. I think Jose's career, and Buddy's and Hopkin's far eclipses
mine...always has. (take that Steve Lamako..:D)

Sure I would consider it an honor, but if it never happens, I am still one very content mf-er. (and I'm REAL glad I ain't broke.)

Get off my case, you big bully..:)

PS I'm ready for an EXTENDED break from all this fun.
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
Jenna,

You have been quite successful in the porn world, and know more about the "inside" of it, and have known more players, up close and personal than I ever have, or ever will. I will admit that up front.

I think some wires got crossed, this was sent to me. It should have been sent to SJD.


Well thanks Dick, I think this thread has gotten bogged down and thought it needed some new life injected into it. I hope that this pic helps.

P.S. Dick, thanks for friday night. xoxoxo's

Love Jenna

jenna_jameson_001_121206.jpg
 
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SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
I think some wires got crossed, this was sent to me. It should have been sent to SJD.


Well thanks Dick, I think this thread has gotten bogged down and thought it needed some new life injected into it. I hope that this pic helps.

P.S. Dick, thanks for friday night. xoxoxo's

Love Jenna

View attachment 439

Now you've done it Looney...Jay only reads one out of ten posts...now he's sure to miss my reply..:rolleyes:
 

SJDinPHX

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jay helfert said:
Fats did promote Fats, and very well I might add. He also promoted pool at every exhibition and appearance he ever did. "Pool is the greatest game on earth!" He would proclaim to all present, in person and on TV. He also frequently launched into a dissertation on why pool was such a great game and so hard to play. Sorry Dick, I was there. I heard it and I saw it.

Jay, I clearly stated...YES, POOL CAME ALONG FOR THE RIDE, AFTER...REPEAT, AFTER...HE GAINED SOME SEMBLANCE OF NOTORIETY.
Prior to his "rise to prominence"... his only comment regarding pool was..."I beat every livin' human at dis' game"...I was there too Jay, about ten years before you were.

Whats up with this "sorry Dick" s--t... Are you saying I didn't know Fat's loved HIS pool ? Where did I say that ?...sheeesh !!! <---note..no smiley face... I'm outta here.
 
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fred bentivegna

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Reply to the "One" question

Reply to the "One" question

SJDinPHX said:
Very interesting find Doc. So it looks like it was more of a coincidence, timing wise, huh ? But the timing was golden...wasn't it ?

I guess we'll always wonder if Jansco's efforts, would have become nothing more than a well organized "Hustler's Get together", instead of becoming a well attended, popular event, by both player's and spectator's, as the years went on.

The success of the movie, could also be why Jim Mckay and WWOS, did not show up until the following year.

Sheds some new light on Fat's role too, doesn't it ? (if accurate...who knows for sure)

SJD <---with all my "erroneous" statements, I still wish Steve had answered my "ONE" valid question, before he quit speaking to me..;) (I'll bet Beardman is forming a blistering answer for me...take your time Fred.) :) :)

You asked why Fats wasnt selected in the previous years. I will offer an answer for you. The deceased players that have so far have preceded Fatty are Lingo, Boston Shorty, Rags, Jersey Red, Marvin, Steve Cook, and Corn Bread. Anything wrong with that line up? Incidentally, I voted for all those guys and wasnt bothered at all that they all got in before Fats! The way I looked at it, Fats had plenty of acknowledgement already, and those players deserved their day first. But now that we have them in, there should be no reason to not now give the Fat man his due.
Your rejection of Fats and your embrace of a piece of work like Beanie, is what is a mystery to me. Most of the hustlers loved Fats, and most of the hustlers hated Beanie. Makes no sense. I think you may have spent too much time as a square john. You must have experienced an epiphany of hustlers guilt, and went over to the other side.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Greatest Toy

Greatest Toy

jay helfert said:
Fats did promote Fats, and very well I might add. He also promoted pool at every exhibition and appearance he ever did. "Pool is the greatest game on earth!" He would proclaim to all present, in person and on TV. He also frequently launched into a dissertation on why pool was such a great game and so hard to play. Sorry Dick, I was there. I heard it and I saw it.

He would also beller, Jay, that a pool table was the greatest TOY ever made.

Beard
 

lfigueroa

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SJDinPHX said:
That also appears to mean, you have immersed yourself in that world, so much, as to be blinded to the fact, that just because YOU and I, and everybody in the "pool world" knew Fats, EVERYBODY must know him.
You stated, "The world knew him as well as a guy, like Jackie Gleason", who was a real, live icon as a celebrity for almost his entire life. I can't believe you made that statement.


For anyone to claim that Fats was as known and/or as recognizable as Gleason is, well, more than a little over the top.

For decades, Gleason was a music, television, and movie star, loved by millions.

Fats was a pool hustler.

Lou Figueroa
let's try and keep
things in perspective
 

JAM

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stevelomako said:
...Also, here's my pick for Lifetime in Action.

Paul "Jew Paul" Bruesloff

Hi, Steve. :)

Could somebody please show me where the Lifetime in Action category is? I cannot seem to locate it. I would like to see who has been inducted in and who is on the list for that this year. TIA! :cool:

Carry on! :p
 

NH Steve

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JAM said:
Hi, Steve. :)

Could somebody please show me where the Lifetime in Action category is? I cannot seem to locate it. I would like to see who has been inducted in and who is on the list for that this year. TIA! :cool:

Carry on! :p
Lifetime Pool in Action is a special award that we started in 2007 to broaden the One Pocket Hall of Fame to include legends of action that might not specifically fit into either the Bank Pool or One Pocket categories. This was at the request of Greg Sullivan, who wanted to see other legends of action eligible for our Hall of Fame recognition. As you know, the Billiard Congress of America Hall of Fame focuses on "Major tournaments" and industry favorites -- they get a little uncomfortable about the hustling and gambling from their perspective (and rightly so, for them -- they should be promoting the clean image of pool). But generally that is a different group from the whole action side of pool (with some obvious overlap). We see our Hall of Fame as a contrasting companion to the BCA HOF -- they want the clean image tournament champions and establishment favorites; we want the action guys and those that promote the whole action side of pool. Pool has always had these contrasting sides, since the game was invented, now there is a contrasting Hall of Fame.

The Lifetime Pool in Action award is chosen by the (informal) OnePocket.org board of directors, not the general membership. At this time, we are only considering living legends. In some years, we may select from a specialized category -- like one-handed experts, or even three cushion players, or only backers -- but whatever the specialization, the selection will always be solidly from the action perspective.

The prior honorees have been:
George Rood
Denny Searcy
Jimmy Reid
Jimmy 'Flyboy' Spears

Keith McCready would obviously be a very good candidate :)
 

stevelomako

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JAM said:
Hi, Steve. :)

Could somebody please show me where the Lifetime in Action category is? I cannot seem to locate it. I would like to see who has been inducted in and who is on the list for that this year. TIA! :cool:

Carry on! :p

Hi Jen,

Tia (Tatiana) is my Grand-daughters name. What is the meaning you're using it for? Just curious cause I've never seen it for anything.

I know about the news with Keith, that is sooo sweet. Tell I said it's the score he missed out on when Redd Foxx would have staked him to play anybody in the world for any amount at "The Rack" and he never got any takers cause the bet would have been SKY HIGH!:eek:

Do a cruise (he can take his laptop to play on the ship), they are the greatest thing in the world for doing nothing and being catered to.:cool:
 
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