GRADY RULE

[lll]

336robin posted this from an AI search (i guess)
From AI:

Grady Mathews, a renowned pool player, introduced a rule in One Pocket to address situations where multiple balls are clustered behind the head string (in the “kitchen”). According to Grady’s 4-ball rule, if all the remaining balls are in the kitchen at the end of a player’s inning, the ball closest to the head rail will be spotted12. This helps to keep the game flowing and prevents stalling.
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i bolded and increased the size of the part i want to emphasize
it seems in the last few tourneys i have watched that used the grady rule anytime more than 4 balls are in the kitchen the overflow number balls were spotted regardless if there were "playable balls" out of the kitchen.
i played in a tournament this past sunday where the grady rule was in effect and balls were spotted whether there were balls out of the kitchen or not
several long time players thought it was stupid to play with grady's rule in the first place
(thats a different discussion NOT FOR NOW OR HERE PLEASE )
but they said if you were going to play with that rule it should only be if there is nothing else to shoot at out of the kitchen
they had not seen the above that i posted
what do you guys think?

 

[Pool Cat]

I dare not open the can. Or do I? lol.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Larry, I am not sure about this AI or 336 Robin, but could it be simply a conjecture by the AI, because it starts by saying; " according to the Grady Rule ".
For me, the AI has combined a mixture of rules and developed their own rule. The closest it comes to is JJ's spotting rule. With BIH-BTL and all the object balls are also in the kitchen and there are no balls to spot, then the ball closest to the head rail spots.

The correlation is; the ball closest to the head rail spots. It today's rules it would be the ball closest to the head string spots, of which is not nearly as much common sense as a ball closest to the head rail. .

**** But, your old head guys relate to the AI statement. Why is the Grady Rule enforced when there are playable balls below the kitchen. Very interesting, and backs up the AI statement.

I am sure not qualified to answer the validity of this one, I have never played by the Grady Rule. But, by my understanding it is when 4 balls are within the kitchen, and then when any further balls entering the kitchen it results in; at the end of the inning the balls closest to the head rail spot up bringing the count back down to 4 balls within the kitchen.
Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Interestingly, over at AZ Billiards they are discussing the length of OP and Bank games. We are experimenting with the Grady rule and shot clocks and other ideas to make games and matches go faster. Many ideas are good maybe for tournaments but not for daily play, that is a problem.

I offered this, which has been discussed before.

Stop allowing the scores of OP games to go backwards. When a foul occurs, add a ball to the opponents score, either by placing a coin on his rail or maybe by allowing him to select a ball off the table as his, or maybe just take the ball closest to the top rail and give it to him.

This would not only stop the score from going backwards, but it would actually force the score forwards and would definitely speed up ALL games. No fuss, no muss. No change in how you play the game. Tournaments and TD's would love the simplicity of this and the results. There is NO downside to this....

 

[baby huey]

My headache is coming back.

 

[lll]

@darmoose
maha said this over at AZB
the bolded part (by me) identifies the real problem

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.............................
maha said:
fouls are only in top player one pocket. average to better players hardly ever take a foul. no need to.

games go slow because of slow players. that is the problem not the rules of the games.

must be alot of slow players here as seems everyone wants to change the rules to accommodate slow players.

 

[lll]

i think i have a reason for spotting a ball even when there are other balls in play
the more balls in play the better the odds the game will finish quicker....duh

 

[Billy Jackets]

Interestingly, over at AZ Billiards they are discussing the length of OP and Bank games. We are experimenting with the Grady rule and shot clocks and other ideas to make games and matches go faster. Many ideas are good maybe for tournaments but not for daily play, that is a problem.

I offered this, which has been discussed before.

Stop allowing the scores of OP games to go backwards. When a foul occurs, add a ball to the opponents score, either by placing a coin on his rail or maybe by allowing him to select a ball off the table as his, or maybe just take the ball closest to the top rail and give it to him.

This would not only stop the score from going backwards, but it would actually force the score forwards and would definitely speed up ALL games. No fuss, no muss. No change in how you play the game. Tournaments and TD's would love the simplicity of this and the results. There is NO downside to this....

Would that not eliminate the last chance intentional foul when the ball is deep in opponents pocket, and opponent needs one ,and in the past, you used to jump off the table, now, they just assume you made the shot and 2 balls spot up? With this rule , if he needs 1 you lose if it gets too deep to get out.
Also takes away any intentionals , when the opponent needs one, that just seems like too big of a change, we have all seen many games lost from here, now you just award the guy the game for getting close.,so you can speed things up.
Am I seeing this wrong?

 

[darmoose]

@darmoose
maha said this over at AZB
the bolded part (by me) identifies the real problem

............................
.............................
maha said:
fouls are only in top player one pocket. average to better players hardly ever take a foul. no need to.

games go slow because of slow players. that is the problem not the rules of the games.

must be alot of slow players here as seems everyone wants to change the rules to accommodate slow players.

OP was created and evolved to be a game that inherently would be slower than most other pool games. In the early days people appreciated defensive strategies. We have all these discussions primarily because greedy tournaments try to cram too many players into a schedule, and because no one has come up with a workable solution that satisfies everyone.

I think you can't speed up the game without stepping on someone's toes. And games can take longer for reasons other than slow players, like two defensive players playing tightly.

 

[darmoose]

Would that not eliminate the last chance intentional foul when the ball is deep in opponents pocket, and opponent needs one ,and in the past, you used to jump off the table, now, they just assume you made the shot and 2 balls spot up? With this rule , if he needs 1 you lose if it gets too deep to get out.
Also takes away any intentionals , when the opponent needs one, that just seems like too big of a change, we have all seen many games lost from here, now you just award the guy the game for getting close.,so you can speed things up.
Am I seeing this wrong?

Let's face it...all of these rules discussions are about TOURNAMENT play, not our everyday matchups. And so we need to prioritize what we want to accomplish. Stop matches when they reach some magical time limit, spot balls when too many get above the string line, use less than 15 balls, increase the penalty for fouls, even time clocks change the game for some.

You could make an exception to this rule when a player needs only 1 ball. Eliminating intentionals or just making them less desirable could be exactly what is really needed.

Or, you could just let the game end exactly as you say, when one player gets his last ball hung in his pocket, the game has to end somewhere, don't it, Greedy TD's want more players, so the games must be shortened or sped up....prioritize.

Your opponent needs 1 ball, you foul...you lose, not so bad.

 

[lfigueroa]

There are too many stupid things being suggested (and even implemented) that rob the game of some of its base, essential elements.

Many matches go to the up table game but players have often come up with amazing, creative solutions to the layouts.

So let's eliminate all that in the interest of expediency. Thats not one pocket.

Lou Figueroa

 

[NH Steve]

I've looked at really old pool rules -- more than 100 years old -- when balls need to be spotted from the kitchen, it has ALWAYS been the ball closest to the head string that gets spotted, not the head rail. If you think about it, that makes sense because it is the ball that is already closest to being "in play".

As far as I know, Grady's rule always followed that same principle -- the ball or balls closest to the head string where the ones to be spotted. If anyone actually finds a genuine writing directly by Grady that says head rail instead, then they got me lol.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

So we have some old heads that thinks the Grady rule only comes into effect when there are no balls below the head string, Wow, that would be pretty late in the game. Can you imagine 15 balls being in the kitchen.
Whitey

 

[darmoose]

I've looked at really old pool rules -- more than 100 years old -- when balls need to be spotted from the kitchen, it has ALWAYS been the ball closest to the head string that gets spotted, not the head rail. If you think about it, that makes sense because it is the ball that is already closest to being "in play".

As far as I know, Grady's rule always followed that same principle -- the ball or balls closest to the head string where the ones to be spotted. If anyone actually finds a genuine writing directly by Grady that says head rail instead, then they got me lol.

I must say I don't see the logic in that.

If the goal is to get more balls into playable positions, and balls near the head string are already more playable than balls nearest the head rail, then it seems to be somewhat counter productive to spot balls nearest the head string, don't you think? What was originally written doesn't matter if it is wrong.

 

[darmoose]

There are too many stupid things being suggested (and even implemented) that rob the game of some of its base, essential elements.

Many matches go to the up table game but players have often come up with amazing, creative solutions to the layouts.

So let's eliminate all that in the interest of expediency. Thats not one pocket.

Lou Figueroa

tap..tap

 

[Billy Jackets]

So we have one old head that thinks the Grady rule only comes into effect when there are no balls below the head string, Wow, that would be pretty late in the game. Can you imagine 15 balls being in the kitchen.
Whitey

I would rather think about the flying monkeys in the wizard of oz.

 

[Billy Jackets]

If slow play is the problem , just make 1 rule that covers everything. If you are involved in a match that lasts more than X hours, the first time it happens, whoever is ahead wins, if its a tie , you play 1 ball spotted on the foot rail, shoot from the kitchen , doesn't count if made on first shot, game lasts 20 minutes, if no winner both players take a loss.
If a player does it twice , they are automatically out of the tournament , the other opponent if no previous gets a win but is marked for 1 long game , if he does it again he is out.
Play however you like gambling , but these are tournament rules.
After a couple of tournaments , the notoriously slow players will quit coming and everything will go at a good pace.

 

[lfigueroa]

If slow play is the problem , just make 1 rule that covers everything. If you are involved in a match that lasts more than X hours, the first time it happens, whoever is ahead wins, if its a tie , you play 1 ball spotted on the foot rail, shoot from the kitchen , doesn't count if made on first shot, game lasts 20 minutes, if no winner both players take a loss.
If a player does it twice , they are automatically out of the tournament , the other opponent if no previous gets a win but is marked for 1 long game , if he does it again he is out.
Play however you like gambling , but these are tournament rules.
After a couple of tournaments , the notoriously slow players will quit coming and everything will go at a good pace.

If you advertise a time limit players will start to game the clock if they're ahead.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Does anyone know why the OP.org Hague tournament in using the Grady Rule changed it to spotting the ball closest to the head string instead of the head rail?
Whitey

 

[Billy Jackets]

If you advertise a time limit players will start to game the clock if they're ahead.

Lou Figueroa

Gaming the clock is cheating , treat it the same way you treat any other unsportsmanlike foul.