Frozen Balls

[Billy Jackets]

I have played a lot of good players who either did not see the shots, or did not know them.
I use the systems to not only make balls, or move them to certain areas but also to play safe off of.
If you have not incorporated this ability into your one pocket game , you are missing out on some very powerful moves.
Make sure before playing anyone, that you both agree on what are push shots and what are not.
I was very befuddled a couple of years ago {maybe more, time is flying by} when they decided that even if the balls were not touching it was NOT a foul as long as you were jacked up.
I remember one shot , Scott Frost called over the ref and the cue ball was at least an eighth of an inch from the object ball .
The guy splashes balls all over the place and one goes right in front of his pocket!
Good hit!
The look on Scotts face was priceless, kinda like when you get kicked in the nertz and have to keep fighting.
I have to admit I don't practice any shots that aren't frozen, and I don't know if they changed that rule again or not.
But, there are, as i said, a lot of great moves that can be AIMED , not guessed at, if you learn how.
This might be a good book for someone to put out.
If you do, please remember to send me a pork chop, I can see the cloth in a lot of places now.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I use the systems to not only make balls, or move them to certain areas but also to play safe off of.

What systems?

pj
chgo

 

[Mike]

Bridgeton (NJ) Herbie was one of the best I've ever seen at shooting a ball with a miniscule gap between them without scratching.

 

[beatle]

it is nothing but an argument over fouls or not when you let someone shoot into a full ball from less than a chalk length away. so you have to define what is allowed and not. forget about the --you couldnt have hit that and made it go forward or i heard the double click--. just set the rule.

making the cue 45 degree angle or having to shoot away from any ball closer than a chalk unless hitting less than the center of the object ball or something like that. and all shots have to be okayed by the opponent before shooting.

 

[tucson9ball]

If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball it's ok to just swing away....but if there is a gap.....NO WAY!
If my opponent is lining up on such a shot(with gap) I usually say "I know you're not going to shoot straight through right?" They usually decide to shoot something else....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball it's ok to just swing away....but if there is a gap.....NO WAY!
If my opponent is lining up on such a shot(with gap) I usually say "I know you're not going to shoot straight through right?" They usually decide to shoot something else....

There should be a certain cut angle that makes the likelihood of a double hit very low. I thought it might be 45 degrees, but on second thought I'm not so sure it needs to be that thin. Does anybody know what it is, or if the rule specifies the angle?.

pj
chgo

 

[James Galati]

Pushing the cue ball

Pushing the cue ball

The rule per CSI is: a legal stroke is "momentary" contact cue tip to cue ball.
In the CSI rules (1-20-4) there is a contradiction regarding cue ball frozen to object ball. It states if the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, you can shoot toward the object ball using any "LEGAL" stroke. It goes on to state that" when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, a foul can still occur if the cue tip is kept in contact with the cue ball for longer than a normal stroke, resulting in a" push shot". It's impossible to shoot towards the frozen object ball and not push, IMHO.
The BCA rule is 1.21

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The rule per CSI is: a legal stroke is "momentary" contact cue tip to cue ball.
In the CSI rules (1-20-4) there is a contradiction regarding cue ball frozen to object ball. It states if the cue ball is frozen to an object you can shoot toward the object ball using any "LEGAL" stroke. It goes on to state that" when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, a foul can still occur if the cue tip is kept in contact with the cue ball for longer than a normal stroke, resulting in a" push shot". It's impossible to shoot towards the frozen object ball and not push, IMHO.
The BCA rule is 1.21

Here's a slomo video from Dr. Dave's website showing that frozen CB/OBs leave the tip together, like hitting the CB alone, clearing the way for normal follow through without double hit or prolonged contact.

[If the first link doesn't work, try the second.]

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96_push_shots_with_various_English.mp4

pj
chgo

 

[darmoose]

There should be a certain cut angle that makes the likelihood of a double hit very low. I thought it might be 45 degrees, but on second thought I'm not so sure it needs to be that thin. Does anybody know what it is, or if the rule specifies the angle?.

pj
chgo

I would suggest that the shooter must shoot away from the OB at such an angle that when you look at his shot prior to him pulling the trigger, his cue stick will not intersect with the OB.

This would allow the non shooter to observe prior to the shot, that the angle being taken is not going to produce a foul.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would suggest that the shooter must shoot away from the OB at such an angle that when you look at his shot prior to him pulling the trigger, his cue stick will not intersect with the OB.

This would allow the non shooter to observe prior to the shot, that the angle being taken is not going to produce a foul.

So half ball (30 degree cut) or thinner.

pj
chgo

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

This is how I write it.
Frozen Cue Ball Shot:
When the cue ball is declared frozen to a legal object ball then you are allowed to stroke through the cue ball and directly towards the frozen object ball providing it is executed with a legal stroke, and providing it is executed with a legal stroke as defined under Cue Ball Impeded Shot.

Now for the clarification of what constitutes an illegal shot in this scenario, for it can be stroked anyway you want as long as the cue ball is legally struck by the cue tip. The one and only way this shot can be declared illegal is if you gently lay the cue tip against the cue ball, pause the stroke, and then follow through. This is a "Push Shot foul". Now it is legal as long as you use one continuous stroke! Note; The pause allows one to apply much more english and throw vs. one continuous stroke!

But there is an exception to this rule, and that is when the Frozen Cue Ball Shot is further impeded. Such as when you have a Frozen Cue Ball Shot w/ object ball frozen to the cushion. It is a foul to gently stroke through this shot for the cushion impedes the stroke and thus holds the cue tip upon the cue ball an inordinate prolonged cue ball contact time, and thus results in a push shot foul. There are a couple of notable trick shots executed with this illegal stroke, and cue tip contact time.

Push Stroke:
When the cue tip stays in contact with the cue ball as the stroke continues forward. Note; this is a little known phenomena but a sharp ref. can pick up on this. I have seen a cue ball ride the tip of the cue for several inches before the object ball is contacted. This definition and Cue Ball Frozen Shot are lost BCA definitions that I am trying to resurrect, currently Dr. Dave has adapted Cue Ball Frozen Shot.

Cue Ball Impeded Shot:
When there is a natural impeding effect of; an object ball, a cushion, or the bed of the table upon the stroked cue ball. This impeding effect legally allows; Frozen Cue Ball Shots, Cushion Compression Shots, Jump and Masse' shots to have a slightly longer cue tip contact time upon the cue ball than what is normally allowed for a legal shot.

Note; in our thread on the Paul Newman Hustler Shot, this is an example of a shot that legally allows a slightly longer cue ball contact time. Of course it is 1000's of a second. But this is a valued definition for it does not make the Hustler Shot illegal. Think about it, this fabulous shot, and fabulous one pocket shot, could be deemed illegal just because it has a 1000's of a second longer cue tip contact time. And this might explain why a national referee deemed this shot illegal.

To answer about stroking a close proximity ball on an angle, I have done some tests on this and found that within a tooth pick .090 of the object ball, if you stroke it with center ball on a 45 degree angle it will not push through the tangent line. But on a 40 degree angle it will. As you add more separation such as 3 tooth picks then you can shoot more directly towards the object ball, such as 40 degrees approaching 35 degrees, and it will not foul.

This is important to know, for a ref. could automatically call a foul on this. So I had a session with Bret Baker, CSI in charge of referee's, and we went all through this, plus Push Stroke, and also the proper foul criteria for when stroking directly at an object ball on close proximity shots. He video tape me executing these shots legally with the cue ball within a 1/4". I did it with follow and draw. With follow the cue ball must pause at the contact point before following forward. With draw the cue ball is not allowed to go past the contact point. I will do a complete thread on this soon, with videos. Whitey

 

[Renegade_56]

I would suggest that the shooter must shoot away from the OB at such an angle that when you look at his shot prior to him pulling the trigger, his cue stick will not intersect with the OB.

This would allow the non shooter to observe prior to the shot, that the angle being taken is not going to produce a foul.

If the cue ball is frozen, I don't see this making a difference since the foul, (double hit) never occurs on the object ball, but instead on the cue ball, and then usually only when the shot force is somewhat intercepted by a close by rail or other object balls. If the cue ball is very close, but not frozen I think the foul is always a possibility unless shooting very thin off of the object ball, even when jacked up.

 

[Billy Jackets]

In my opinion the new rule made things worse, not better.
Now you have a rule that is in force in this specific tournament, but no one uses it outside of this venue?
There are some amazing shots with object ball and cueball very close to each other, say 1/8th of an inch that most people would scream bloody murder could not be made legally, but they can!
The shots I referenced are all frozen ball shots.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In my opinion the new rule made things worse, not better.
Now you have a rule that is in force in this specific tournament, but no one uses it outside of this venue?
There are some amazing shots with object ball and cueball very close to each other, say 1/8th of an inch that most people would scream bloody murder could not be made legally, but they can!
The shots I referenced are all frozen ball shots.

You've mentioned "amazing shots" and "systems" more than once, but haven't described any...?

pj
chgo