Does Defence Win Championships?????

lll

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in most sports they say when playoffs come defence wins championships
seems to me nowadays its the offence that wins
what do you think????
stated in another way can the chicago squeeze work in the modern era???
 

SJDinPHX

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You can't compare it to football...

You can't compare it to football...

lll said:
in most sports they say when playoffs come defence wins championships
seems to me nowadays its the offence that wins
what do you think????
stated in another way can the chicago squeeze work in the modern era???

One Pocket has not changed all that much Larry. The young guns just shoot straighter is all..Which can lead to shorter games, one way or the other.
By the way, shooting as straight as Alex or Shane is not all that commonplace you know...Their awesome firepower sure helps, but in the long run, whoever is moving the best, in a given session,... will still usually prevail.

Aggresiveness was a big part of RA's game in his prime, as was mine. But when you lose your ability to run balls, you are forced to play more defense...That doesn't mean you like it, its called self preservation. Until my game went completely south, I could usually beat someone to the shot..Now it does no good to do that, because I can't capitolize on it... it kinda sucks..:rolleyes:

El Duck <---Still thinks he has enough gas left in the tank, to easily destroy John Barton. (or barely edge out Fast Lenny)..:D :D :D

PS..Also, watching the Ghost play, on Calired's video, made me feel he would have been toast, if I had made our match...I wonder if he's coming to Vegas ???.:eek:
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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lll said:
in most sports they say when playoffs come defence wins championships
seems to me nowadays its the offence that wins
what do you think????
stated in another way can the chicago squeeze work in the modern era???
Larry, you, being a baseball fan know as well as anyone that "good pitching" beats "good hitting".

RBL
 

sappo

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Need Both

Need Both

Everyone that i know that plays one pocket will tell you that they feel they either shoot good enough but they dont move well enough, or they feel the opposite. To play the game of one pocket at the "top of your ability" you must develope your skills on both sides of the game.
So to answer your question, can defense win championships? i would have to say it can happen on occassion BUT in the long run championships will be won by those individuals and those teams that are strong in both the offense and the defense side of the game. Clearly every individual or each team will be stronger in either offense or defense but they will be proficient in both. Sappo
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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sappo said:
Everyone that i know that plays one pocket will tell you that they feel they either shoot good enough but they dont move well enough, or they feel the opposite. To play the game of one pocket at the "top of your ability" you must develope your skills on both sides of the game.
So to answer your question, can defense win championships? i would have to say it can happen on occassion BUT in the long run championships will be won by those individuals and those teams that are strong in both the offense and the defense side of the game. Clearly every individual or each team will be stronger in either offense or defense but they will be proficient in both. Sappo



Games are won by Deffense and offense.

Like the team that scores at the end off the game if they dony score they loose.

Or a team can stop the team from scoring on the last drive if they stop them the win.


The real answer too the qouistion is

IF YOU DONT SCORE YOU CANT WIN.

Deffense is very important and so is offense. But if you dont score you cant win. To win Scoreing is a must. With out a score thier is no winner.
 

bstroud

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The best defense is a good offense.
Win by winning not by waiting.
Defense is like road kill. It's for hyenas.
Not players.

Bill Stroud
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Larry, you, being a baseball fan know as well as anyone that "good pitching" beats "good hitting".

RBL



You need too be good on offense and defense. And Dennies is wright. The Greenbay Packers won because off thier offense.

And they should have won by a lot more points. But never the less Greenbay won because off thier offense.


But they had a good deffense too. BUt thier offende won the game. And Pittsberg had a chance at the end to win the game.

But Greenbats deffense stoped them. So it was a combination off offense and deffense.

Some games are one on deffense and some are one on offense and some are won on both.

THe Chicago Squezze is a safe defensive game. And it will work if that defensive player is also a good offensive player.

It is hard to win against a player who playes great deffense and great Offense. By just playing great offense or just playing great defense.

It has too be a combination off both. I did not play the Chicago Squezze even though I no how to play it. Just like I can play the most offensive one pocket game people have ever seen.

And If you would like to see a few games. Like a great shooter like Alex I will coach him against some off the great offensive players like Scott.

And youwill see offense and power shots you never seen or deamed off.

And because I play a different style then anybody. And it looks very deffensive and safe . Its not what it looks like.

But if we are ever killing time. Scott can play Alex and shoot the Offensive or Power shots I tell him too shoot and we will see what hapines.

I cant shoot the shots because my execution is too poor. And I can do the same thing on Deffense. And Alex can play Scott both ways. And tape it and see what you think and see.
 

diamondave13

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These short races in tournament play favor the offensive game but gambling I'm betting on the well rounded player who wins with the occassional 8 and out and wins the games where he never runs three balls.
 

Jimmy B

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God a mighty

God a mighty

I clicked on the thread and it flashed up Artie Bodendorfers post and I thought for a moment that AB was back, and then I realized Dimondave was just chasing old ghosts. I cussed like a sob. Bill told me he was going to speak to Artie about coming back so, . If he doesn't keep his word I will start revealing things about him. In fact someone sent me a clip of Dr Bill and The Beard along with their two road aces stopping at a truck stop for some 'fun' . They both can consider this a little warning if they don't bring AB back soon. This clip is r rated so take heed. It starts slow but after a few moments look out. I would have thought they would have outgrown this sort of thing. My goodness....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1sTM_yEPFU&feature=relmfu[/ame]
 

androd

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These short races in tournament play favor the offensive game but gambling I'm betting on the well rounded player who wins with the occassional 8 and out and wins the games where he never runs three balls.

I'm considered a gofer, I occasionally play a guy who is far more offensive minded than myself. I have to change my style against this guy, and also play much safer than with others, because he shoots at everything and shoots very well. When the tables are wet, he's mine. :p Other times it's very close.

Last week I played an old fart (6 or 9 years younger then me) :eek: who played very safe and didn't shoot at anything. After a few games I spotted him and then spotted him more. He said "I don't see how you can beat me with balls flying all over the table" but all those banks and caroms you shoot look like " homing pigeons".

My point being I think everyone has to adjust their style to fit the opponent. It's like boxing certain styles give certain people a lot of trouble, but other boxers handle them much easier.
Rod.
P.S. I put the homing pigeon quote in because I'd not heard it before and thought it funny. :D
 

wincardona

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Does defense win championships? I would say no, but it certainly helps in winning championships, especially when both sides are reasonably close on the offensive front. The better defense will always be a factor in winning, period. But there have been many many times when the side with the best defense didn't win, mainly because they weren't the favorite.

Dr. Bill
 

Deeman

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My thoughts are the Chicago Squeeze is effective except between the very top ball runners who have such remarkable shooting skills to get them out of most tight spots or at least enough to make that first ball. You see it when Scott Frost makes a tough shot and then puts big runs on you.

My question is are there really many Artie type players out there now? At least at the top level of the game? Offense has certainly taken over and perhaps that answers the question better than anything. When was the last World Champion to play really tight?

DeeMan
 

petie

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I think that real good defense, the type that sets up traps, is what leads to the opo making week shots and/or errors. Real good traps force errors. Then you need the offense to capitalize.
 

vapros

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I'm pretty sure that you could develop a game that would allow you to compete with, or maybe even dominate, the best of the local players in most localities. However, if you stepped up and went against one of the really tough one-pocket players, your game plan would be as useless as balls on a heifer, and you would have to take a different approach.
 

tylerdurden

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My thoughts are the Chicago Squeeze is effective except between the very top ball runners who have such remarkable shooting skills to get them out of most tight spots or at least enough to make that first ball. You see it when Scott Frost makes a tough shot and then puts big runs on you.

My question is are there really many Artie type players out there now? At least at the top level of the game? Offense has certainly taken over and perhaps that answers the question better than anything. When was the last World Champion to play really tight?

DeeMan

I think about your question all the time too, and I think the answer is Allen Hopkins.

Here is my opinion: I think pure one pocket moving and strategy has actually gone down hill over the years in terms of the sheer number of players shooting tight and "correct" shots. What that has done is give a false perception that shooting wins, and all the youngsters shoot more, and it just kind of perpetuates. What adds to the phenomena of shooters taking over is the fact that when a player is playing a really tight game, ONE mistake can end a game. I don't think modern day player's cue balls are up to that challenge like they were in the past. Modern day players learn quick that tight playing results in loses and take the offensive road as a result. Yet, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the right way to play, it just may mean the way people play now is different -- more emphasis on offensive power and less on precision and consistent cb placement. I personally think if you took the top 15 one pocket players in the world right now, had them fight it out everyday for a couple months for a winner take all million bucks, all the guys at the top would be playing very tight at the end of it.
 

lll

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heres some more food for thought and comments welcome
because of the modern players willingness to shoot tough shots and the ability to make them
is it tougher to play defence now ????
 

Deeman

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I think about your question all the time too, and I think the answer is Allen Hopkins.

Here is my opinion: I think pure one pocket moving and strategy has actually gone down hill over the years in terms of the sheer number of players shooting tight and "correct" shots. What that has done is give a false perception that shooting wins, and all the youngsters shoot more, and it just kind of perpetuates. What adds to the phenomena of shooters taking over is the fact that when a player is playing a really tight game, ONE mistake can end a game. I don't think modern day player's cue balls are up to that challenge like they were in the past. Modern day players learn quick that tight playing results in loses and take the offensive road as a result. Yet, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the right way to play, it just may mean the way people play now is different -- more emphasis on offensive power and less on precision and consistent cb placement. I personally think if you took the top 15 one pocket players in the world right now, had them fight it out everyday for a couple months for a winner take all million bucks, all the guys at the top would be playing very tight at the end of it.

Tyler,

I know what you mean, but, it seems to be a little more like natural selection as the top players are playing the style as the skill sets they have are the most successful. Maybe if Scott played more defense he would win an even larger percentage of games but also, his superior shot making skills overpower any or most defense. I also wonder if a player came along like a young Efren with all the skills and a couple of balls better than the best, if they (the top players) would play that more conservative game. I don't know how many times I have seen Scott shoot an offensive shot and I would say, "Man, I'd never shoot that!" Then, of course, he runs 7 or 8 and out.

DeeMan
 

petie

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I think that real good defense, the type that sets up traps, is what leads to the opo making week shots and/or errors. Real good traps force errors. Then you need the offense to capitalize.

Let me put it another way: Good defense or laying down good traps is what helps you beat the guy to the shot. Maybe you think that Scott or Efren doesn't shoot defense. Wrong, they shoot great defense. It's just that they will go for a harder shot than you and me because they have a higher percentage of making these shots.
 

lll

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Let me put it another way: Good defense or laying down good traps is what helps you beat the guy to the shot. Maybe you think that Scott or Efren doesn't shoot defense. Wrong, they shoot great defense. It's just that they will go for a harder shot than you and me because they have a higher percentage of making these shots.

heres some more food for thought and comments welcome
because of the modern players willingness to shoot tough shots and the ability to make them
is it tougher to play defense now ????
so the trap had to be tougher???
 
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