Cushions brand

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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The ledge bevel seems to be too much? Ever see a slate like this?
Yes, that is the bevel used on snooker tables. So your table is probably a converted snooker table. My table is too. I learned that from Ken the ph# I gave you. Pool tables do not have that much bevel.
Your shelf depth looks fairly deep, that's nice! Looks like very nice work on the rails and cloth.
Whitey
 

GoldCrown

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Yes, that is the bevel used on snooker tables. So your table is probably a converted snooker table. My table is too. I learned that from Ken the ph# I gave you. Pool tables do not have that much bevel.
Your shelf depth looks fairly deep, that's nice! Looks like very nice work on the rails and cloth.
Whitey
The slate is new. Could a slate with less of bevel been used or was this selected for a reason (made deliberately for this table)? Have never been near an antique table..have no idea what certain details should look like. No idea what year this Centennial is from. Are you referring to Ken Hash? I'm buying a cover from him.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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The slate is new. Could a slate with less of bevel been used or was this selected for a reason (made deliberately for this table)? Have never been near an antique table..have no idea what certain details should look like. No idea what year this Centennial is from. Are you referring to Ken Hash? I'm buying a cover from him.
No, it is definitely a snooker slate! If someone bought a new slate for that table they made a mistake! But, I believe the only difference is roundness of the drop. The length and width I believe would be the same. Although my table is a converted snooker table and the shelf is quite deep.

I do not know Ken's last name. But the roundness is very similar to mine, and the Ken that I gave you the phone # is absolutely a profession when it comes to tables, rails, cushions, cloth, antique tables and so forth. He will tell you about the roundness of the drop, this is what he does.
He can tell you what cushions will work on your table, whether it is 66 or 55 profile you are suppose to use.

Or you can call an antique billiard table restorer, such as in NY, and they can confirm that the extra roundness means it is a snooker table slate.
Whitey
 

NH Steve

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Klematch are the most expensive, and are the best cushions for responsiveness, and true bounce for banking, meaning the ball will come off the rail on its true angle.
This makes the pockets not so readily except the balls as we see on 9' Diamonds when the rail is contacted prior to the pocket.

The balls will bank truer, and will not reverse coming off the 2nd bank rail like it does on Diamond Artemis cushions or any of the other cushions available.

A true perfectionist of the game, and a player that does not want double banks to be compromised, and wants pockets to play tough would then want Klematch. 4-1/2" pockets on Klematch cushions would play plenty tough, but Diamonds have to go to 4-1/4" to toughen up the pockets, as the ball contacts the rail before the pocket.

I think Steve will agree with this depiction, for he has played on Klematch. He does not like them for some unique banks that really grab reverse coming off the 2nd bank and thus are doable, are not doable with Klematch. Like the cross over from side to side pocket banks. The banks will not shorten up as much either.

I would get a professional opinion on this before investing, I am not a professional when it comes to cushions, and am mainly surmising but no one else has mentioned these cushions.
Whitey
Yes, my regular club has two GC5 tables with 860 HR and Klematch cushions. They are the truest banking tables I have ever played on, by far. While that sounds like a 100% wonderful thing, in reality it is not, because it means when you want to shorten up a bank, or get it to reverse on the second rail, you really can't. So that rubber actually takes tools out of a banker's toolbox. It does make the Z banks much easier, so in that regard I guess it gives something back.

But my understanding is that Greg Sullivan -- who lives smack in Bank country and has always loved banks -- wanted Diamonds to have qualities that allowed for things like shortening up banks. I believe Diamonds are designed to offer a bank player the widest range of possibilities in addressing their shots. Do they want to use speed and hold up english to play it extremely short? Check. Do they want to lengthen the bank by softly stroking with running english? Check. That is a plus for many people playing on Diamonds.

But if you want straight forward true rebound, Klematch might be what you want.

That is my own personal experience -- I'm not a knowledgeable table guy however.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve's comment; "Yes, my regular club has two GC5 tables with 860 HR and Klematch cushions. They are the truest banking tables I have ever played on, by far."
Thanks Steve, that is what I wanted to hear. Whitey

I believe many members want to play on the equipment used at DCC, and especially in banks that is very helpful and the wise choice.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/R5CA47UW2A93eu9C8 notice that in-between the wear lines is where my bevel is, not on either side. This correlates with the opening of a snooker pocket. Whereas on your slate the bevel goes all the way around. Possibly different technique of beveling. My table dates back to 1880 -1912. I seen a factory brochure, from American Billiards in Long Beach off of Anaheim st., on my table and that was the dates in it. Interesting that record part of the Brunswick factory burnt, and now Brunswick lists my table as being mfg. during different time period. They actually do not know.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ur6YYVRfhkXicTtT8 The depth of the pocket shelf is like yours, very deep.
Your pockets seem to be cut @ approx. 4-1/2". The depth of shelf and pocket width are all good. You will not find that deep of a shelf on modern tables. So this tells me that your cushions are playing soft around the pocket, otherwise your pockets should not be accepting balls that readily.

It will be interesting as to what Tom finds out when he evaluates your table. Between Tom and Larry, they should know someone that can get your table set up the way you want it.

IMO, I'd change out the cushions and fiberglass resin up the bevel, and then you would have one hell of a table.
Whitey
 

GoldCrown

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sorackem

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Interesting that record part of the Brunswick factory burnt, and now Brunswick lists my table as being mfg. during different time period. They actually do not know.
I spent hours trying to identify exactly what my old BBC table was. Records were almost non-existent due to that fire you mention at Brunswick.
I settled on calling my table a Saratoga as that table was the same as the one I owned in all but one way.
While searching, I found many tables listed as Saratoga but they were all pot-bellied tables. Mine was a straight-angle frame.
The table I had was unique from every other Brunswick antique that I ever saw or found online - the label was carved into the rail-top and accented in gold-leaf. The best I could tell was that my table was also likely manufactured around that same time period.
 

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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I spent hours trying to identify exactly what my old BBC table was. Records were almost non-existent due to that fire you mention at Brunswick.
I settled on calling my table a Saratoga as that table was the same as the one I owned in all but one way.
While searching, I found many tables listed as Saratoga but they were all pot-bellied tables. Mine was a straight-angle frame.
The table I had was unique from every other Brunswick antique that I ever saw or found online - the label was carved into the rail-top and accented in gold-leaf. The best I could tell was that my table was also likely manufactured around that same time period.
Why not put up a picture of your table, maybe it can be identified.
Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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soracken, I believe your table to be a Warwick made from 1904 -1911, which is a high end table, that are often mistaken for a Saratogo or Newport The Warwick has a thicker trim at the bottom of the apron vs. Saratoga. Your table I believe is Mahogany, It is a beauty, I love the cover trim over the rail bolts. It should have a heavier construction using heavy bolts for the base.
http://www.billiardsforum.com/pool-...brunswick-balke-collender-warwick-or-saratoga I can not find images of a Warwick that backs up this guys contentions. The Warwick image I found has a bellowed side. The legs of your table, to me appear to be very similar to a Newport.

When I got my table I also got a half dozen 1 piece house cues. When I started making cues 30 years later, I remembered these cues, and one was different for the butt was made out of the prettiest Mahogany you ever seen. It glistens of gold out in the sunlight. I made it into a two piece cue stick. I call it the most beautiful house cue in the world. The cue could be 75 years old or older. If I can get a good image of it out in the sun light I will post it.
Whitey

https://brunswick.pastperfectonline.com/library/B3C0B598-E8A9-421A-BF3D-565828050823
This is the factory image of a Saratoga. Click on the image. What I see is a slightly different leg than that of the Newport, and your table.
This below shows a Newport with the legs like yours. There is another picture here (just below left).(another one in center) also that claims to be a Newport but the legs have an extra decoration at the bottom, I believe these to be a Saratoga. But click on the below and open.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.billiardrestoration.com/images/antique-billiard-pool-tables/285/newport-2.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.billiardrestoration.com/antique-pool-tables/newport.htm&tbnid=-Ke4bOvygFEqaM&vet=12ahUKEwjLrrCDnq3uAhUMUlMKHYu6DMUQMygAegUIARCoAg..i&docid=_te8L197gjaetM&w=480&h=254&q=Newport Brunswick pool table images&ved=2ahUKEwjLrrCDnq3uAhUMUlMKHYu6DMUQMygAegUIARCoAg
 
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sorackem

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Thanks for the info, Whitey. Some resources there that I didn't see when I was researching some twenty years ago.

I looked at the Warwick shown by Brunswick but it doesn't really look much like my old table (pictured above).
I realized the Newport and Saratoga were very similar in outward appearance.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable accepting that it was a Warwick, yet - but I realize that I don't know for sure and could well be wrong. There seems to have been quite a bit of variation within models. The leg-blocks seem to vary quite a bit on many of the tables I've seen.

The reason I was more comfortable with identifying my table as a Saratoga is that it was obviously a higher quality build.
My table did have those heavy iron bolts underneath and the kicker was - the customized nameplate. It wasn't a commercial type brass plate but a high-end engraved gold-leaf label that spelled out quality and perhaps some customization. The blind-rail covers made me think it might be around 1912 or later.
My table also had 1" 3-piece framed slate.
I still have yet to see an example of any of those types with a straight-taper frame or 'any' BBC table with the engraved label.
(just now searching Saratoga online - for the first time, I see another gold-leaf label. At first I thought it might be my old table, but it was not.)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/iCUuCGqAJaS6dAJe6 click on picture then scroll to enlarge, that really helps to bring out the wood.

This is the old house cue I got with my table. I believe it must be approx. 100 yrs. old. I researched the wood, and I believe it to wavy mahogany.
It really glistens gold in the sunlight. The picture does not quite do it justice.
I have seen a few old house cues that somewhat have a pattern of wavy mahogany, but nothing that compares with this.
A blast from the past, enjoy! Whitey
 

GoldCrown

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Ball hopping at certain spots. I spoke to few knowledgeable people. Said its a poor rail job. Simply not a precision professional job. Also trying to get it right on ancient rails does not work out. Remedy is replace cushions, sub rails..the works. Was mentioned the difference between $100 rails and $400 rails has to do more with how long they will last. If installed properly Black Diamond should play well. I thought I went to the right person for this table. Thought there would be no flaws or aggravation. Someone hates me. Thanks for the replies.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Ball hopping at certain spots. I spoke to few knowledgeable people. Said its a poor rail job. Simply not a precision professional job. Also trying to get it right on ancient rails does not work out. Remedy is replace cushions, sub rails..the works. Was mentioned the difference between $100 rails and $400 rails has to do more with how long they will last. If installed properly Black Diamond should play well. I thought I went to the right person for this table. Thought there would be no flaws or aggravation. Someone hates me. Thanks for the replies.
There are those that know better than me when trying to marinate a diamond cushion to a Centennial. Listen to the pros. Whitey
 

GoldCrown

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In conclusion I got a table made for a non players game room. More for show and tell, parties and part time laundry table. They say there are no mistakes in life... everything a learning experience. But that’s bunk .. I made a mistake.
 

catkins

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In conclusion I got a table made for a non players game room. More for show and tell, parties and part time laundry table. They say there are no mistakes in life... everything a learning experience. But that’s bunk .. I made a mistake.
Really sorry to hear this.. Hope it works out for you and you have a tbale yo ucan be happy with
 
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