Cliff vs Efren…Tony vs Alex

stevelomako

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For people that never got to see Cliff and Efren…Tony and Alex compare a lot to those two.

So many similarities if you look for them.


When Efren beat Cliff at DCC giving him 8-7 one of the $$$$ guys from Detroit asked about Cliff. I said 8-7 ain’t shit, they both run balls too good so those numbers are too low.

I told him I thought Cliff could rob Efren if they played like 12-10 or even 13-11 because the ball running would come into play.

He thought about it for a minute and told me to go talk to LeBron about playing again.

I went to Mike and told him so and so would stake Cliff at 12-10 for $100,000.

All Mike said was “No no no”.

And that was it.


I think the same thing with Tony but not as much like I did with Cliff.
 

squeezeplay

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For people that never got to see Cliff and Efren…Tony and Alex compare a lot to those two.

So many similarities if you look for them.


When Efren beat Cliff at DCC giving him 8-7 one of the $$$$ guys from Detroit asked about Cliff. I said 8-7 ain’t shit, they both run balls too good so those numbers are too low.

I told him I thought Cliff could rob Efren if they played like 12-10 or even 13-11 because the ball running would come into play.

He thought about it for a minute and told me to go talk to LeBron about playing again.

I went to Mike and told him so and so would stake Cliff at 12-10 for $100,000.

All Mike said was “No no no”.

And that was it.


I think the same thing with Tony but not as much like I did with Cliff.
That's very interesting. Was Cliff the best one-pocket ball runner of all time? Maybe.
 

lll

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When Efren beat Cliff at DCC giving him 8-7 one of the $$$$ guys from Detroit asked about Cliff. I said 8-7 ain’t shit, they both run balls too good so those numbers are too low.
I told him I thought Cliff could rob Efren if they played like 12-10 or even 13-11 because the ball running would come into play.
He thought about it for a minute and told me to go talk to LeBron about playing again.
I went to Mike and told him so and so would stake Cliff at 12-10 for $100,000.
All Mike said was “No no no”.
And that was it.
I think the same thing with Tony but not as much like I did with Cliff.
just to be clear steve
are you saying that if alex gave tony 12-10 or 13-11 tony would rob alex?
 

Kybanks

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I can see where extending the game would benefit Cliff and Tony. Cliff and Tony arent gonna run more balls than Efren or Alex consistently. Mike Lebron said no to that proposal because they would be gambling at that game. They had way the best of it with Cliff at 8-7.
 

stevelomako

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just to be clear steve
are you saying that if alex gave tony 12-10 or 13-11 tony would rob alex?
No. I think Cliff would have robbed Efren like that. Cliff could run balls like no one else. Cliff had no problem taking 2-3-5 scratches, it didn’t faze him a bit how many he needed.

I think Tony’s chances are way better if he and whomever he is playing go to more balls. He can run him some balls too, just not like Cliff. He’s a little more loose than Cliff was I’d say.
 

lll

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No. I think Cliff would have robbed Efren like that. Cliff could run balls like no one else. Cliff had no problem taking 2-3-5 scratches, it didn’t faze him a bit how many he needed.

I think Tony’s chances are way better if he and whomever he is playing go to more balls. He can run him some balls too, just not like Cliff. He’s a little more loose than Cliff was I’d say.
thanks for the reply steve
i still think your statement above implies tony its better for him and his "whomever" go to a higher number
i think that would be a bad decision against alex
 

NH Steve

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thanks for the reply steve
i still think your statement above implies tony its better for him and his "whomever" go to a higher number
i think that would be a bad decision against alex
I tend to agree — I would give the edge to Alex in ball running. Alex also gets the edge in disciplined focus. Tony gets the edge in creativity and banking though!!
 
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wincardona

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In regard to the statement about ball running, IMO no one ran more balls than Reyes. Reyes is also one of the most creative players ever to play. If Reyes had a weakness it would have to be his heart, and even there he was strong. So IMO Reyes was the strongest one-pocket player there ever was..period. Also, as far as running balls Cliff was a monster, but I would put Reyes and Pagulayan over Cliff. Both Reyes and Pagulayan came with the tough shot more consistently which is crucial when running balls, starting runs and keeping runs going.

Bill Incardona
 
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gulfportdoc

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In regard to the statement about ball running, IMO no one ran more balls than Reyes. Reyes is also one of the most creative players ever to play. If Reyes had a weakness it would have to be his heart, and even there he was strong. So IMO Reyes was the strongest, if not the strongest one-pocket player there ever was..period. Also, as far as running balls Cliff was a monster, but I would put Reyes and Pagulayan over Cliff. Both Reyes and Pagulayan came with the tough shot more consistently which is crucial when running balls and starting runs.

Bill Incardona
Good to see you posting, my man!

Fedor ain't too shabby either. But I recall the first time I saw Paulayan, It was in the mid '90s in Reno at the Sands Regency tournaments. He was playing in a 6 man 10ball ring game with all road players. He broke and ran 6 racks of 10ball. Everyone quit.
 

stevelomako

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thanks for the reply steve
i still think your statement above implies tony its better for him and his "whomever" go to a higher number
i think that would be a bad decision against alex
You’re welcome.

It might be why people gamble. 🤷🏻‍♂️😀
 
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stevelomako

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In regard to the statement about ball running, IMO no one ran more balls than Reyes. Reyes is also one of the most creative players ever to play. If Reyes had a weakness it would have to be his heart, and even there he was strong. So IMO Reyes was the strongest one-pocket player there ever was..period. Also, as far as running balls Cliff was a monster, but I would put Reyes and Pagulayan over Cliff. Both Reyes and Pagulayan came with the tough shot more consistently which is crucial when running balls, starting runs and keeping runs going.

Bill Incardona
Now Bill…I did say Cliff still needed a spot.

Just that his chances would have been better if both went to a higher number…Efrens would have been just a little bit higher.


I guess that kinda means I thought Efren was the best. 🤑
 

wincardona

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Good to see you posting, my man!

Fedor ain't too shabby either. But I recall the first time I saw Paulayan, It was in the mid '90s in Reno at the Sands Regency tournaments. He was playing in a 6 man 10ball ring game with all road players. He broke and ran 6 racks of 10ball. Everyone quit.
Pagulayan, in particular, knows the importance of playing the correct shot at the correct time and plays very hard all the time. Now that coupled with his ball-striking skill and his heart makes him the best one-pocket player in the world today and quite possibly the second-best one-pocket player there ever has been.

Bill Incardona
In regard to the statement about ball running, IMO no one ran more balls than Reyes. Reyes is also one of the most creative players ever to play. If Reyes had a weakness it would have to be his heart, and even there he was strong. So IMO Reyes was the strongest one-pocket player there ever was..period. Also, as far as running balls Cliff was a monster, but I would put Reyes and Pagulayan over Cliff. Both Reyes and Pagulayan came with the tough shot more consistently which is crucial when running balls, starting runs and keeping runs going.

Bill Incardona
Cliff is also from the United States, with that said it's common for people to defend or support their countrymen regardless of the sport that is being discussed. In the Philippines what would the response be if they had this same conversation? Some questions don't deserve an answer.

Bill Incardona
 

baby huey

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I played Cliff, Alex and Efren at different times in their respective careers. I played Alex when he didn't know One Pocket and he was a ball running monster. I did beat him pretty good. I got 8/7 and 9/7 and he tried to play the game like it was rotation. I played both Cliff and Efren at my pool room about a year apart and I got the same game (I made a bad game) 10/7 from both. I found Cliff's style much harder to play in that he took way more scratches than Efren would even consider taking. Cliff played that type of game. He didn't have the cue ball finesse Efren possessed so he just took scratches extending the game out. But I agree with Dr. Bill that Efren is/was the best One Pocket player I ever saw. Although Alex is right there IMO.
 

stevelomako

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I played Cliff, Alex and Efren at different times in their respective careers. I played Alex when he didn't know One Pocket and he was a ball running monster. I did beat him pretty good. I got 8/7 and 9/7 and he tried to play the game like it was rotation. I played both Cliff and Efren at my pool room about a year apart and I got the same game (I made a bad game) 10/7 from both. I found Cliff's style much harder to play in that he took way more scratches than Efren would even consider taking. Cliff played that type of game. He didn't have the cue ball finesse Efren possessed so he just took scratches extending the game out. But I agree with Dr. Bill that Efren is/was the best One Pocket player I ever saw. Although Alex is right there IMO.
Since you saw and played both, what do you think of my statement?

If you had to bet on Cliff playing Efren, would you bet him getting 8-7 or 12-10?
 

stevelomako

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Pagulayan, in particular, knows the importance of playing the correct shot at the correct time and plays very hard all the time. Now that coupled with his ball-striking skill and his heart makes him the best one-pocket player in the world today and quite possibly the second-best one-pocket player there ever has been.

Bill Incardona

Cliff is also from the United States, with that said it's common for people to defend or support their countrymen regardless of the sport that is being discussed. In the Philippines what would the response be if they had this same conversation? Some questions don't deserve an answer.

Bill Incardona

Here’s the same kind of scenario in reverse.

Al Naif was playing Paul Bruseloff at my place (the private club not the pool room).

Al was giving Paul 11-8 and got robbed.

I told Al I’d stake him but give Paul 10-7. 😱


Al put that thing in Paul something bad.


I could see at 11-8 he would run a few balls and then be sick having to spot 3 of them.

Just spotting 1 ball made all the difference in his head. 🤷🏻‍♂️


I had to do the same kind of thing with your little buddy Scott Frost. His head wasn’t always in the right place. 🙄

My 1-2-3 is:
Efren
Alex P
Dennis O
 

baby huey

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Steve, I don't think Cliff could withstand the great ball striking some of these great One Pocket players possess including Efren, Alex and Dennis. Cliff missed easy shots from time to time a little too much for me to put him in that top player category. Interesting about players strengths in that I think Scott gave up those 15/4or5 games better than anyone I ever saw. Period. But he couldn't beat those top three even consistently. His game knocked off weaker players for the BIG money.
 

stevelomako

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Steve, I don't think Cliff could withstand the great ball striking some of these great One Pocket players possess including Efren, Alex and Dennis. Cliff missed easy shots from time to time a little too much for me to put him in that top player category. Interesting about players strengths in that I think Scott gave up those 15/4or5 games better than anyone I ever saw. Period. But he couldn't beat those top three even consistently. His game knocked off weaker players for the BIG money.
It’s kinda why I said Cliff needed weight but he would have a better chance with he and his opponent going to a higher number.


I don’t know where I said Cliff could play any of those guys even. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Oh…I didn’t say that, hmmmmm. I don’t get why people think that
 

Kybanks

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I used to go to the Derby at the Executive Inn West just to watch Cliff play 1 pocket and Efren play it. I did ask Cliff in the early 2000's how he would play Efren, and he said he needed 9-7 and he wasn't sure if that was enough. That kinda tells ya how far ahead Efren really was against the other great 1 pocket players. In the early 2000's Cliff was definitely in the top 5 at that time.
 
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