Banks ring games in your poolroom?

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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thanks John,
take care, get well soon!

For me, I have no more to contribute to this thread, with this final post it will end my involvement in this thread, and in any other threads involving rules.
I believe after 5 years of answering every rule question thread, I'd say a good 100, nearly 5 years (started Nov. '17) involved in official rules w/ 20 months directly involved in a rule committee, other game rules such as OB-OP & 5 Rack Ghost, and the development of new bank games such as Pay Pool Ring Banks and One Side of the Table Banks, and I was even ask to help on a major tournament op flyer, that is enough of a contribution. Very time consuming.
Other endeavors of mine have been put on hold long enough.
Whitey
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Well, I lied and now am back in, for it is just too intriguing. I happened to be scrolling though back pages of banks looking for something and stumbled upon the Midwest Ring Bank Tournament. As we are in the middle of trying to figure out how to properly play this game, I reviewed this match again. An excellent match, that I recommend to view.

At 18:30 of the match the player breaks and makes a ball. He continues to score a couple of banks, and then his next bank goes into the wrong hole and thus brings attention to the fact that balls need to be spotted, but they forget to spot the ball made on the break.
So once again we see errantly pocketed balls are being forgot to be spotted. If you view it, there is no reason not to spot the ball made on the break immediately. The breaker created the action so the resulting action should be squarely placed upon the player to have the ball immediately spotted. Not Fair, to spot the ball later and possibly ruin what otherwise would be a bank for the incoming player, for he did not create the action so should not receive it.

This Midwest ring game is played very close to the way I depicted tournament play. They collect from each player after a score, they raise the amount per scored ball and shake (breaker abstains) after a few games of play. A foul is not a loss of ball.
I am still not sure how they keep track of games played. I suggested coins (quarters) on top of the rail and then the racker places it under the rail for each game played.

I researched ring bank rules on the internet, and they are all over the place, but I never thought to research the Billiard Congress of America rules. I have a '95 and 2004 rule book and to my surprise they have adopted Banks.
The BCA plays ring game by their standard two player bank game rule, which is played that the winner is the winner of each game and not an accumulation of scored banks. Their ring game rule is full rack banks. The winner when 3 players play is the player that scores 5 balls, 4 players is 4 balls, and 5 players is 3 balls. Highest number of players is 5.
Their basic rules;
1. foul is a loss of a scored ball, or owed,
2. jumped ball off the table is a foul,
3. open break ( I could not find what the requirement is), and if not met then the incoming player accepts the table as is, or can break, which I believe is a fair way to do it. A ball made on the break is spotted at the end of the inning,
4. upon a foul other than a cb scratch the table is accepted as is,
Note; there is no remedy for when a ball is forgotten to be spotted.
So we now have America's rule making body that has adopted ring bank game. So that explains why banks are played somewhat the way they are. It also explains my research into ring game rules, that have players loose a scored ball, and balls are held for spotting until the end of the inning.

DCC recognizes that there is a problem with forgetting balls, and therefore in their bank rules they have it as a forgotten ball is spotted after each player has had an inning.
But, in the ring game a forgotten ball once remembered is spotted immediately, whether or not it screws up the players or incoming player's next bank. Very wrong! To be consistent then it should be spotted after each player has had an inning, or better yet after all other balls have been cleared, but who is going to track or remember.
The best way to play is to spot all balls immediately, and eliminate the problem, and make the game fair.
Whitey
 
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crabbcatjohn

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You started out as wanting to write down the rules to bank ring games. Thats why I got stuck here. Thanks Steve... I see what you did to me.....

Writing down thousands of words isn't going to change my mind on what the rules are.
Neither you or me have the right to change the rules.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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You started out as wanting to write down the rules to bank ring games. Thats why I got stuck here. Thanks Steve... I see what you did to me.....

Writing down thousands of words isn't going to change my mind on what the rules are.
Neither you or me have the right to change the rules.
Yes, only those in power control the rules of play in any game. So, how am I having the right to change the ring game rules, I am not. Steve has every right for he has the power to do so. I only suggest as with any member, and then from there it takes the willingness and open mindedness of those in power to enter into a discussion.
Without that, then there is no progression of thought!

A ring bank match mini tournament would be a great addition to an MOT event. So, with that alone there is a need to establish our own ring bank game rules, for there is no established rules out there, is there? Everyone does it the way they think it should be played.
Whitey
 

cincy_kid

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I haven't played as much banks as most of you but I thought you spotted balls AFTER the player's inning. So you break, make a ball and you shoot until you miss then the ball spots that you made on the break. Same as one pocket or any game I've played. Balls spot after the players turn
 

crabbcatjohn

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I haven't played as much banks as most of you but I thought you spotted balls AFTER the player's inning. So you break, make a ball and you shoot until you miss then the ball spots that you made on the break. Same as one pocket or any game I've played. Balls spot after the players turn
Sounds like you might have a better understanding of the game than me Chris.
Whitey, I think Cincy is the guy your looking for to get the rules published. He does that sort of thing on the website.
Talk to you all later...
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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John,
I have a lot of respect for you on this thread, and especially out of all the banker members you are speaking up, and out of all the 1000 views you are speaking up.
Here is my take on bank pool. In '67 BCA adopted OP, and it is a game that has neutral pockets. In their '67 rules it states that balls are to be spotted after the inning is completed. Now, some time after, who knows, probably Jewett knows, BCA adopted the game of bank pool. It also has neutral pockets (few games do), so it stands to reason that they would follow suit and spot balls after the inning is completed.

This is fine, for in bank pool it is one on one, and you are more likely to remember a ball made on the break vs. as I have pointed out in ring bank pool as witness at DCC and Midwest there is more of chance to forget that ball under certain circumstances.
So, I am stating that standard bank pool rules do not quite fit for ring game banks, there is a flaw worth discussion.

The real crime in forgetting the ball is when it once realized it is spotted immediately whether the player gets screwed or not. Not fair. In ring games it is very important that there is a fair playing field for all players. Ring games are brutal, you miss out on your chance that could be it.
That is why I am also suggesting that on a foul it can only be passed back if the table is deemed unbankable. Otherwise, the player following the player that passed it back (even though there was a bank), is now 2 players down. Not fair!

Of course, some play on a foul that the incoming player accept table as is. I am not a fan of this, for what if the table is deemed unbankable, he then has to use his turn as a shoot-out with more than likely a chance he will not get back to the table.
Whitey
 
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cincy_kid

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Sounds like you might have a better understanding of the game than me Chris.
I'm sure I don't, lol!

Isn't that how you play, seriously? Spot balls up after your turn? If not, that goes to show you how much I play the game...

EDIT: Never mind, I looked back a couple pages in this thread and saw you post this John:

"...You don't spot a ball imediatly after break. Its after the breakers inning is done...."

(so at least I have that part right!)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Well, with this official BCA ring bank game find, that plays per game, it now finishes my research into how the game is played. I have no other input without being more repetitive than I have already been.

When I think about how BCA/Brunswick was so family oriented, and offered so many American games such as; Bottle Pocket Billiards, Cowboy Pocket Billiards, Cribbage, Forty One, Baseball, Fifteen Ball, Line Up, Mr. & Mrs., Poker, to name a few, and Charlie Peterson efforts of bringing the world of pool to so many collegians and boys clubs, through those so tough years, and now nothing but a few that WPA governed games, what a sad turn of events.

I believe this thread has run its course, except for hearing back in how Steve's ring bank game is going, and John H's ring bank game once it gets going. I'll try to get a ring bank game going in my town. The problem here is we only have one table that is somewhat up to par to play on.
If I can talk the owner into reserving it, I just might be able to get something going. I tried in OP, but that has failed thus far.
Whitey
 

NH Steve

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Regarding when to spot balls made on the break -- look at it this way Dennis.
  • Every banks player is used to it being that way
  • A forgotten ball (to be spotted) does not mean much in a "pay by the ball" ring game, because it does not effect how you keep score
  • Perhaps most importantly, a ring game consists of a group of players, and there is only one player (the breaker) who would likely want balls spotted immediately after the break -- everyone else would be oh no you don't :LOL:
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve,
Ever since I discovered flaws in the way ring bank pool is played, and suggested how to correct them, I have learned all too well, that this is the way it is played, and nothing is going to change that. No new revelations here!
As I stated, "this thread has run its course".

I will add this about your 'most importantly' point: In viewing DCC the cue ball on the break inevitably comes back up table nearly 100%, the ball made on the break and being spotted is down table, thus more than likely will not be the next bank vs. the more common opening bank after the break of a cross side or corner. So, therefore the spotted ball will have little effect upon the rack. It equals out anyway, for all players can and do make balls on the break. So, I cannot agree with your contention.
Whitey
 
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