Ball in the kitchen on scratch

cincy_kid

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A buddy of mine was telling me that he read in Billiards Digest magazine about a rule involving the ball in the kitchen after a scratch. I have always played that the ball either has to be completely over the line to shoot it or that the base of the ball has to be over the line (depending on the house rules or whatever was decided by the players involved).

He said that the article explained that even if a small part of the ball was touching the line, that it was ok to shoot the ball as long as the cueball was over line when it made contact. So for example, in banks lets say, a ball is barely touching the line but mostly in the kitchen and your opponent scratches. With this rule, you could shoot that ball cross corner because the cue ball would be over the line at point of contact.

Is this something new or have I just been in the dark too long? :)
 

lll

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hope this helps from the rule book
bolded part is from me for emphasis



6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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A buddy of mine was telling me that he read in Billiards Digest magazine about a rule involving the ball in the kitchen after a scratch. I have always played that the ball either has to be completely over the line to shoot it or that the base of the ball has to be over the line (depending on the house rules or whatever was decided by the players involved).

He said that the article explained that even if a small part of the ball was touching the line, that it was ok to shoot the ball as long as the cueball was over line when it made contact. So for example, in banks lets say, a ball is barely touching the line but mostly in the kitchen and your opponent scratches. With this rule, you could shoot that ball cross corner because the cue ball would be over the line at point of contact.

Is this something new or have I just been in the dark too long? :)

The dark thing:).

Your first paragraph is correct.
 

lll

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The dark thing:).

Your first paragraph is correct.

i dont think it is
according to bob jewett
.........
from bob jewett
........
QUOTE=Bob Jewett;5489281]The World Standardized Rules do not require contacting anything outside the kitchen. For example, you could play a masse shot that curves around the headspot and comes back to pocket the ball.

The BCAPL rules require you to contact something outside the kitchen before contacting any ball inside. One shot is to shoot nearly parallel to the headstring, contacting the side cushion just outside the kitchen. Heavy sidespin can bring the cue ball back into the kitchen to pocket the hanger.[/QUOTE]
.....
here is a thread i started on azb and bobs reply post #3

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=421430
 

Cowboy Dennis

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i dont think it is
according to bob jewett
.........
from bob jewett
........
QUOTE=Bob Jewett;5489281]The World Standardized Rules do not require contacting anything outside the kitchen. For example, you could play a masse shot that curves around the headspot and comes back to pocket the ball.

The BCAPL rules require you to contact something outside the kitchen before contacting any ball inside. One shot is to shoot nearly parallel to the headstring, contacting the side cushion just outside the kitchen. Heavy sidespin can bring the cue ball back into the kitchen to pocket the hanger.
.....
here is a thread i started on azb and bobs reply post #3

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=421430[/QUOTE]

Larry,

One or both of us is misunderstanding his question. It could be me. I thought he was referring to this situation and asking if the 12 could be shot with BIH since part of it is over the line. His question in the 2nd paragraph is confusing:


shot1.jpg




Dennis
 

cincy_kid

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The way the rule reads in the Billiards Digest mag suggests if you have ball in hand behind the line and the 9 is sitting in the kitchen, but barely touching the line, you could cut it in the corner or bank it cross corner because the point at which the cue ball contacts the 9, the cue ball is OUTSIDE the kitchen.

 

cincy_kid

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.....
here is a thread i started on azb and bobs reply post #3

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=421430

Larry,

One or both of us is misunderstanding his question. It could be me. I thought he was referring to this situation and asking if the 12 could be shot with BIH since part of it is over the line. His question in the 2nd paragraph is confusing:

---------------------------------


Turns out the article in Billiards Digest is from Bob himself. Here is the paragraph where he talks about it:



I have the entire article scanned in that I could post here but I wasn't sure if there was any copyright issues involved so if someone can answer that, if it's ok, I will post it here for others to see.

Thanks!
 

LSJohn

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The cue ball must either cross the head string [/b]or contact a ball[/b] in front of or[/b] on the head string or the shot is a foul


"...or contact a ball... on the head string" says to me that this rule calls for playing base of the ball.

Doesn't seem like the other stuff (out and back in, or back-cutting a ball on the line) is relevant to 1 P.
 

sheldon

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I think the cue ball would have to hit a rail, or a ball that is out of the kitchen first, but it could be argued that the cueball being over the line at contact makes it a good hit.
 

cincy_kid

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The main rub, is whether you determine the balls (cue ball as well) in or out by the edge or the center (base). Most rules use the base, but some people insist on using the edge.

According to the rule, it doesn't matter if you play base or edge. You can still shoot it as long as the cue ball is outside the kitchen on contact.

John: maybe not as relevant in 1P, because you don't often shoot back towards the head rail, but think about this scenario:

there's a ball where the 9 ball is in my diagram, there's also a ball on the spot. Your opponent scratches so another ball goes on the spot, you have ball in hand behind the line. If you "wanted to", you could shoot that 9 ball near the pocket and bring the cue ball down to the foot rail and hide behind the 2 balls on the spot to play some sort of safety instead of having to go into the 2 balls on the spot and break them up.

Again, may not be as useful, but it's good to know it's there if you need it.
 

LSJohn

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According to the rule, it doesn't matter if you play base or edge. You can still shoot it as long as the cue ball is outside the kitchen on contact.

It matters because it's also what determines whether the CB is outside the kitchen on contact.

John: maybe not as relevant in 1P, because you don't often shoot back towards the head rail, but think about this scenario:

there's a ball where the 9 ball is in my diagram, there's also a ball on the spot. Your opponent scratches so another ball goes on the spot, you have ball in hand behind the line. If you "wanted to", you could shoot that 9 ball near the pocket and bring the cue ball down to the foot rail and hide behind the 2 balls on the spot to play some sort of safety instead of having to go into the 2 balls on the spot and break them up.

Again, may not be as useful, but it's good to know it's there if you need it.

You're right. It could come up once in a while to seem like the best option.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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According to the rule, it doesn't matter if you play base or edge. You can still shoot it as long as the cue ball is outside the kitchen on contact.

If gambling you must hit a ball that is over the headstring (base or edge). That ball would not be over the headstring and nobody in the world would let you shoot the ball you diagrammed.

You can always kick one rail at it though:).

Dennis
 

lll

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i dont think it is
according to bob jewett
.........
from bob jewett
........
QUOTE=Bob Jewett;5489281]The World Standardized Rules do not require contacting anything outside the kitchen. For example, you could play a masse shot that curves around the headspot and comes back to pocket the ball.

The BCAPL rules require you to contact something outside the kitchen before contacting any ball inside. One shot is to shoot nearly parallel to the headstring, contacting the side cushion just outside the kitchen. Heavy sidespin can bring the cue ball back into the kitchen to pocket the hanger.
.....
here is a thread i started on azb and bobs reply post #3

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=421430[/QUOTE]

According to the rule, it doesn't matter if you play base or edge. You can still shoot it as long as the cue ball is outside the kitchen on contact
it depends on which rules you play by whether your shot is legal
the main point which i learned is it legal to hit a ball behind the head line
directly or after contacting a rail
from a scratch when you have ball in hand behind the head line
 

Billy Jackets

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The way the rule reads in the Billiards Digest mag suggests if you have ball in hand behind the line and the 9 is sitting in the kitchen, but barely touching the line, you could cut it in the corner or bank it cross corner because the point at which the cue ball contacts the 9, the cue ball is OUTSIDE the kitchen.


the word "hanger"
, should give the shot away
It's an old shot where you shoot outside the kitchen with sidespin to the side rail and come back in the kitchen and pocket the ball in front of the pocket.
No different than kicking off the long rail
If the ball is out , you could shoot it normally , if it is in , you can't shoot it without going to a rail first. either the long rail or the short rail . A ball cannot be in , if it is out , and it can't be out if it is in.
For me , kicking to the end rail is a hanger , juicing the cueball up is always less accurate.
 

petie

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What is this thread about? If you cant shoot it from behind, no hit will be legal. :frus

I'm with you. This is precisely why I play that in One Pocket the whole object ball must be outside the head string and the whole cue ball must be inside the head string. Too many ambiguities in all of these rules and posts.
 

LSJohn

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What is this thread about? If you cant shoot it from behind, no hit will be legal. :frus


If you play by this rule:

"The World Standardized Rules do not require contacting anything outside the kitchen. For example, you could play a masse shot that curves around the headspot and comes back to pocket the ball."

and this rule (apparently from Jewett in a Billiards Digest article:

"You can also shoot balls behind the headstring provided that the cue ball has crossed the headstring before hitting them"

...it looks to me that Billy Jackets' diagrammed shot would be legal.

Also, how would Billy's shot be any different technically than a masse that leaves and returns?

This is weird stuff that I never gave any thought to, but there are obviously some controversies I didn't know about.
 

androd

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If you play by this rule:

"The World Standardized Rules do not require contacting anything outside the kitchen. For example, you could play a masse shot that curves around the headspot and comes back to pocket the ball."

and this rule (apparently from Jewett in a Billiards Digest article:

"You can also shoot balls behind the headstring provided that the cue ball has crossed the headstring before hitting them"

...it looks to me that Billy Jackets' diagrammed shot would be legal.

Also, how would Billy's shot be any different technically than a masse that leaves and returns?

This is weird stuff that I never gave any thought to, but there are obviously some controversies I didn't know about.

I'm always confounded by new rules. Masse maybe, shooting straight at a ball in foul territory "NO"
 

LSJohn

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I'm always confounded by new rules. Masse maybe, shooting straight at a ball in foul territory "NO"

"Must contact something outside the kitchen first" eliminates all doubt... that's the way I've always played it, but it actually seems fair to allow the masse.
 

petie

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Having played in Michigan bars where they play "no-slop 8-ball", I can tell you that any rule that requires judgement to claim the outcome, will lead to fights.
 
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