Official OnePocket.org Rules Poll revised

[NH Steve]

Gotcha, but based on your rationale, the words "scores a ball" to me implies that it's a legal stroke. It may be clearer if it's stated that if a ball is pocketed on the break, it's a re-rack regardless whether there is a scratch or not. Or something that makes it clearer.

For our own MOT, we can decide how we want to play it -- meaning the whole re-break thing or not, and also if we go with the re-break, is the re-break on a made ball also on a scratch or does a scratch revert back to traditional One Pocket, with the breaker owing one and down a ball to start the game?

 

[NH Steve]

I believe the whole re-break thing was a pro level player driven idea, which has trickled down to amateurs -- kind of like the way 10 ball came about -- starting for pros who were running out 9-ball too much. But the irony is, amateurs don't run out that often lol. Honestly there is no reason for them to play 10 ball and no reason for them to re-break on a ball made on the break either, if you ask me.

 

[beatle]

2.4 needs to say behind the head string line for cue ball and ahead of it for object..

as it says now it is strange as how you look at the head string. from behind it where you are shooting from.
maybe its just me.

6.5 and foul when cueball touches anything while airborne. ----if its rolling along the wood and touches the chalk or something else it isnt airborne so that isnt a foul?

other wise good job well done steve. thanks.

 

[NH Steve]

2.4 needs to say behind the head string line for cue ball and ahead of it for object..

as it says now it is strange as how you look at the head string. from behind it where you are shooting from.
maybe its just me.

6.5 and foul when cueball touches anything while airborne. ----if its rolling along the wood and touches the chalk or something else it isnt airborne so that isnt a foul?

other wise good job well done steve. thanks.

We actually tried those words for 2.4, but above/below are nice and simple companion words, clearly opposite each other, and therefore readily understood as well.

6.5 We did not change from the way it was written in 2005 -- like many of the rules actually. But it is one of those things in our rules that could probably be left up to the general rules. But yes, if the cue ball is rolling along on a rail top, it is a foul if it contacts a piece of chalk. In this context, "airborne" would be anywhere above the actual playing surface.

 

[jlcomp45]

Re-rack option mentions nothing about if the breaker makes a ball and scratches.

In the serious foul section, please change the 2nd (b) to a (c):
(a) Assess a standard foul penalty, and a warning to the shooter.
(b) Assess a standard foul penalty, and opponent receives the option of ball in hand.
(b) Loss of game.

It looks so professional!

I saw that, but thought they addressed it well by the phrasing of "scoring" a ball - you can't score a ball on a scratch.

 

[12squared]

I saw that, but thought they addressed it well by the phrasing of "scoring" a ball - you can't score a ball on a scratch.

Apparently you can

This exactly why it should be handled as a normal scratch, it was not a scoring ball once you scratch.

 

[beatle]

.4 Ball in hand: Ball in hand in One Pocket is always behind the line, not anywhere on the table. All references to “ball in hand” within these rules are to be understood to mean “ball in hand behind the line”. When placing the cue ball, the whole cue ball must be placed above the head string line, and to play directly into an object ball, the whole object ball must be below the head string line. The edge of either ball cannot be in contact with the head string line. If either is not in a playable position then the referee or opponent warns the shooter and they must adjust and/or agree on the playable position prior to the shot being taken. If no warning is given then the shot stands. But, if the shooter ignores the warning and shoots then it is a serious foul, with opponent receiving ball in hand. ref: 6.6.2 Serious fouls (b)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
okay look. you say ball in hand is always behind the line.
third line says cueball must be placed above the head string line... huh??

then it says the whole object ball must be below the head string line.???

behind the line and below the line, are the same in my book. it looks like you view it from the other side of the table instead of the shooters view.

stop and ask anyone in the world if the cueball should be placed above the head string after a scratch.

 

[NH Steve]

behind the line and below the line, are the same in my book. it looks like you view it from the other side of the table instead of the shooters view

I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying that you think "below the line" means within the kitchen??

I always think of the head of the table as where the kitchen is, which is also "up table". The foot of the table is where the balls are racked, which is also "down table". "Above" would always be toward the head of the table, and below would always be toward the foot.

I don't see how anyone could be confused about cue ball placement, since it clearly says "behind the line" twice right up front. The reference to above/below comes up in the description of what "whole ball" means. But maybe I misunderstand the way some people see above/below the line.

 

[beatle]

yes it is confusing for me but i know where the cue ball goes without saying. but i also believe that behind the line is toward the shooter. because the line is in front of the shooter. as you said right above it in the rule.

if you are standing and there is a line in front of you and someone says stay behind the line. that is clear.

i suppose though it wont matter as most will figure it out.

 

[vapros]

'Let It Be'atle! Not to worry - some of us will figure it out and we will explain it to the others.

 

[Nick B]

Great work. Thank you to all involved.

What's next? The Bible?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Beatle,
I just checked for you on the wording of when the cue ball is placed in the kitchen. WPA and BCAPL both use the word; 'behind'. The area behind the head string line.
I actually wrote this rule except for the changes in the final sentence, I had it a ball in hand foul if the warning is not adhered to, and Steve put that into 6.6.2 Serious Foul, and if you follow the dots, it is the same penalty.

So the wording is on me, and not Steve. So it is an oversight on my part. It comes from my experience with writing suggestions for bcapl, for at any point on a table going the direction towards the head rail is above, going to the foot is below.

So in accordance to our General WPA rules, and the BCAPL that most of our country plays by that then 'yes' the wording 'behind' is correct. I appreciatively stand corrected, thank you!
Note; above or behind are both useable, but 'behind' is consistent with the general rules.

But you guys got to love this rule, 'Right'! It is going back in history, in essence going back to the future. They knew rules back then! Actually they used the wording; Cue Ball Within The String. When the cue ball is in hand it must be placed within the string.

*****Another great rule, that I have to give five stars to, that is of course in Mosconi's 1948 Red Book on playing pool, (our bible), is a spotted object ball is spotted frozen to all interfering balls including the cue ball. A great rule for OP, for otherwise the leaving a gap rule (very bad rule) traps the cue ball and puts the incoming player at no fault of their own, and in one hell of a compromised position. If it is good enough for Mosconi it is good enough for me!
But, I could never talk Steve into it, even though freezing it to the cue ball is no harm / no foul just like any other ball. A long term bad gap rule that is equal for each player, still does not justify still using it! A very bad rule, especially for OP with the scoring pockets right there, and now you are trapped with no where to go! Wow!

***** Another great rule for OP, that we learned existed, and played by all the champions, is JJ's spotting rule. When all the balls are behind the line with no balls to spot, you take the ball closest to the head rail. * This makes sense for it takes the ball furthest from the scoring pockets, and does not eliminate a ball out of play close to the head string line. A unique rule for a unique game, they match each other! Not all rules that work other basic games are not necessarily that good of a rule for OP!

IMO, we need to talk Steve into these two spotting rules. I was unable to do on my own, not enough clout, I guess. I mean, I made videos, I presented matches where players were being trapped by a ball being spotted. And at Seniors, Ray Hansen stated Varner lost the game to Efren for the ball had to be spotted with a gap, and Varner had no where to go.

But, I like the entire cue ball must be placed within the head string playing area, with a playable object ball being entirely outside the head string playing area.
This way it is a throwback to yesteryear and terminology used during that early era of OP, but new to this era, and becomes unique to op.org.

thanks, Whitey
real games play BIH-BTL, and spot balls frozen to all balls including the cb.

 

[beatle]

that make sense dennis.

but remember few in the pool room would be able to tell you which or what was the head or foot of the table.
unless they read old straight pool books from decades ago.

 

[beatle]

go in most any pool room and that line is called the foul line most places, some say behind the head string or must be in the kitchen.

i played in bars in rural tasmania and even there they called it the foul line.

 

[NH Steve]

I changed it above to "When placing the cue ball, the whole cue ball must be placed behind the head string line, and to play directly into an object ball, the whole object ball must be past the head string line."

Does that work for you beatle and anyone else who questioned the use of above/below?

I'm also wondering where the bars are where they play One Pocket

 

[NH Steve]

Beatle,
I just checked for you on the wording of when the cue ball is placed in the kitchen. WPA and BCAPL both use the word; 'behind'. The area behind the head string line.
I actually wrote this rule except for the changes in the final sentence, I had it a ball in hand foul if the warning is not adhered to, and Steve put that into 6.6.2 Serious Foul, and if you follow the dots, it is the same penalty.

So the wording is on me, and not Steve. So it is an oversight on my part. It comes from my experience with writing suggestions for bcapl, for at any point on a table going the direction towards the head rail is above, going to the foot is below.

So in accordance to our General WPA rules, and the BCAPL that most of our country plays by that then 'yes' the wording 'behind' is correct. I appreciatively stand corrected, thank you!
Note; above or behind are both useable, but 'behind' is consistent with the general rules.

But you guys got to love this rule, 'Right'! It is going back in history, in essence going back to the future. They knew rules back then! Actually they used the wording; Cue Ball Within The String. When the cue ball is in hand it must be placed within the string.

*****Another great rule, that I have to give five stars to, that is of course in Mosconi's 1948 Red Book on playing pool, (our bible), is a spotted object ball is spotted frozen to all interfering balls including the cue ball. A great rule for OP, for otherwise the leaving a gap rule (very bad rule) traps the cue ball and puts the incoming player at no fault of their own, and in one hell of a compromised position. If it is good enough for Mosconi it is good enough for me!
But, I could never talk Steve into it, even though freezing it to the cue ball is no harm / no foul just like any other ball. A long term bad gap rule that is equal for each player, still does not justify still using it! A very bad rule, especially for OP with the scoring pockets right there, and now you are trapped with no where to go! Wow!

***** Another great rule for OP, that we learned existed, and played by all the champions, is JJ's spotting rule. When all the balls are behind the line with no balls to spot, you take the ball closest to the head rail. * This makes sense for it takes the ball furthest from the scoring pockets, and does not eliminate a ball out of play close to the head string line. A unique rule for a unique game, they match each other! Not all rules that work other basic games are not necessarily that good of a rule for OP!

IMO, we need to talk Steve into these two spotting rules. I was unable to do on my own, not enough clout, I guess. I mean, I made videos, I presented matches where players were being trapped by a ball being spotted. And at Seniors, Ray Hansen stated Varner lost the game to Efren for the ball had to be spotted with a gap, and Varner had no where to go.

But, I like the entire cue ball must be placed within the head string playing area, with a playable object ball being entirely outside the head string playing area.
This way it is a throwback to yesteryear and terminology used during that early era of OP, but new to this era, and becomes unique to op.org.

thanks, Whitey
real games play BIH-BTL, and spot balls frozen to all balls including the cb.

I'm pretty sure the reason they did away with spotting balls frozen to the cue ball (if they ever did that), would be because it is not possible not to disturb the cue ball at least a little if you are freezing an object ball to the cue ball. It is one thing to freeze two object balls, but what are you going to do -- take an extra ball and tap the cue ball and the object ball together to get them to freeze? That seems like a very bad idea.

Rules work for and against every player, and they apply to every player. What you are saying about a specific situation where you think Varner got screwed by not spotting the object ball frozen to the cue ball -- there would be at least as many situations where the incoming shooter would get screwed by freezing the object ball to the cue ball. AND countless other times the cue ball was at least micro moved because it cannot be helped trying to freeze up to it.

If you spot correctly with a small gap, the whole idea is get the object ball as close as you can WITHOUT DISTURBING THE CUE BALL. You want to take that away and let the cue ball get disturbed every time you need to spot a ball and the cue ball is in the way? I see arguments coming -- "You moved the cue ball."

As for which ball to spot when a player who has none, scratches with all the balls behind the line. Thank God that happens fairly rarely, because I believe I would give up the game of One Pocket if it happened all the time lol. So what the heck difference does it make as to which ball spots?? I actually do not care about this one -- our rules just correspond to other pool rules in that regard, here it is just applied it to One Pocket. Why confuse people with a different rule when it really does not make a significant difference?

 

[gulfportdoc]

I believe the whole re-break thing was a pro level player driven idea, which has trickled down to amateurs -- kind of like the way 10 ball came about -- starting for pros who were running out 9-ball too much. But the irony is, amateurs don't run out that often lol. Honestly there is no reason for them to play 10 ball and no reason for them to re-break on a ball made on the break either, if you ask me.

I can see your point, but for different reasons. To me it's a matter of whether one-pocket is to be considered a game of skill, or a game of luck. If it's a game of luck, like 9ball (which I don't think 1P is), then making a ball on the break should just be considered good fortune for the breaker (in addition to his advantage having the break). But if it's to be considered a game of skill, then slopping a ball in on the break should not count. Evidently the pros agree.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I beg to differ, for that is a very poor argument! Weighing gentle placing the ob frozen to the cb, vs. trapping the cb, I'd rather be able to freeze the ob vs. having a rule that when I as the opponent have to face a trapped cue ball, due to no fault of my own. That is a no brainer decision.

Here is from Mosconi's Book on how to play pocket billiards, 1948. It lists game rules, glossary, what shots are legal how they have to be stroked.
It states: If the cue ball rests on the the long string, thus interfering with the placement of the object ball, the object ball is placed either in front of or behind the cue ball, as near as possible to the cue ball (which means frozen to the cue ball. Mosconi writing/his wording.

It also states in there how to legally stroke a cb frozen to an ob. It has to be with one continuous stroke. Which means; you can not lay the cue tip upon the cue ball, pause, and then stroke through. I taught this to the TD of DCC and he adopted this into their general rules.

A rule that was the standard rule from probably the early 1900's when the popular cb frozen rule first became popular in the Bronx. That is where the famous American rule of it being legal to shoot towards (not away) a ball frozen to the cb and played by our greatest golden age BCA Hall of Famers, can not ever be shunned off and dismissed that easily.

Here is why:
*For one; when the object ball is frozen to the cb then by rule it is no harm no foul, to place an ob frozen to the cb.
Most all players can place the ob frozen to a ball without any effect upon the ball, and the cb, it has been done millions of times, when all games spotted balls. The era of spotting balls, a great era!

*For two; once the ob is frozen to the cb then the incoming player can get out of the trap, for it is legal to stroke directly towards the object ball, which allows the cb to follow to a safe place. The great American frozen cb rule! Europeans hate this rule! And the reason for their Black Eight ball, but so what! Americans invented the games.

*For three; the gap is unspecified, which can lead to argument, as Dr. Bill pointed out when I first threaded this. He is in favor of spotting the ball frozen to the cb. It makes sense to him! I know him as the Guru of pool, there is no better indorsement!

For four; it is justly unfair towards the incoming player to get trapped within the stack due to a bad rule. The ultimate position you want to get your opponent in, is to legally trap them within the stack, so this bad rule does that for you, ridiculous. Not much skill in that! Your trapped and now the incoming player is also susceptible of committing a double hit or push shot foul!

Like I stated; I by myself can not convince Steve. Videos, real live games of pros being trapped, Ray Hansen frustrated for minutes on end trying to spot a ball and getting a certain gap (what gap who knows, I'd like to discuss this with him), and then saying the gap cost Varner the game, and further stating; "that if I could of only be able to freeze it to the cb just like with any other ball then Varner could of got out of the trap, and probably won the game.

Varner grew up playing with the ob frozen to the cb when spotting we all did.

Another reason for adopting this spotting rule and JJ's spotting rule, is that I'd like to see Challenge Matches put on by Ray Hansen and commentated by JJ, go by these rules. It would really give OP.org rules a national indorsement plug. Along with a few other rules, such as our BIH-BTL rule, for one.

And yes! JJ's spotting rule would come up 1 in 500 games, so no real effect upon the game or rules, so why not adopt it! It is a great unique game rule fitting of the uniqueness of OP.

I think OP.org should go after challenge matches to use their rules, but you have to have something to offer that is different, for what is the use otherwise, and why would anyone change to your rules. I do not agree with DCC break rule, nor do I agree with their 45 degree rule, and of course their spotting rules, and their BIH -BTL rule. Each and everyone of these rules are bad for the game of OP.

I have worked on and finished a short version of the rules specifically geared to go after challenge and tournament use. But what good are they if the spotting rules are not adopted.

Whitey
Real games play BIH-BTL and spot up balls, and spot balls frozen to the cb.
I have nothing more to add on this, and will not discussed this further unless provoked, others may want to chime in. I will debate any rule, with anyone. I do not care or I can not be swayed by good ole boys, any individual, or other organizational rules, but I am only governed by own principals of rule writing, completing a rule within the rule, the intent is clear and non-ambiguous, and what is good for the game, and the players.

 

[lll]

when 3 balls or more are disturbed but not affecting the shot
compared to when they do effect the shot
how is it determined wht type of "serious" foul this is?

 

[lll]

most onepocket players i have spoken to do not think there should be a rerack if a scratch occurs at the same time as pocketing a ball in the breakers pocket.