Matching-up choice

mr3cushion

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What I said is that you can always get a sense of how a player might have played in their prime by watching them at the table, even many years removed from their prime.

And of course he was always willing to play in Chicago -- that was my point. Equally, everyone you mention are/were Chicago lads. Try and find players on the West or East Coast or the lower Midwest who felt the same. There is no denying he was an accomplished player. However, every area of the country has their heroes and some of them would have swum a ROS to play AB. At least that's what one champion said when asked.

Lou Figueroa
They all did, and drowned in the Chicago river! And most likely the guy you asked.
 

vapros

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It appears to me that, once a match is made - whatever the terms - then each player feels he has the best of it; a sort of personal psychological edge. Else he would not have made the bet. From there, the contest is usually decided by other influences and nothing at all has been proven about the question that prompted this thread, but all the individuals who bet on the winner can feel vindicated. Even a little smug. And that's good. :cool:
 

Jimmy B

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In my experience Artie was a 1P player like no other. He had a unique concept, approach and style to his play. I never saw him in his prime, but I have had a couple of sessions with him after he retired, and he opened my eyes to a style and method of play that I never would have discovered on my own.

When Freddie put him up for HOF, my initial reactions was that he was simply trying to promote a home boy. Later I changed my mind, and realized that he should be in there with the other greats.

I watched a good bit of the match he played as partners with Bill I. against Henderson. His moves were excellent and innovative, but he was reluctant to shoot anything more than a moderate ball pocketing shot, although I did watch at least one 7 & out. I talked with him after the match, and he said he just couldn't make a ball anymore, so he had to pass on shots that he would have taken in an earlier era. He was 30 years past his prime and hadn't played in all that time. I'd love to have seen him in the '60s-'70s.




Right Doc.. In The Encyclopedia, Beard's writing about AB seem very truthful, and it was first hand. Artie came up in the carnival and he liked to rob suckers with his lemon hustle, but he would play tough players. When AB was really into pool, he was at the pool room from around nine am until closing. He may have 3-5 matches a day. He had a one year stint at that routine without losing one single match!! Beard's writing was not all complimentary toward AB.. He reported that Artie was a horrible, obnoxious drunk. He got arrested over and over. Once a plane had to make a special landing on a nonstop flight, to get Artie out of there. Later Artie quit drinking. Beard said he pulled AGAINST AB the majority of the time. lol. I could somewhat understand. He said watching him play one hole was like watching an exterminator kill one bug at at time.

Once Jack Cooney came around. This was not at Bensinger's. Artie was sort of leery and seemed a bit intimidated, knowing all about Jack's rep.. But this is what happened. Instead a guy named Grady Humphrey's played in between Artie and Jack, but Grady received 8 to 5 plus all the breaks. $500 per man, a real good bet at that time. After a few days of play without anybody forging ahead, Artie became frustrated by Jack's shot selections and the way he over moved when they had the lead. Artie suggested that they just quit and play each other. Jack said he would do that, but only if he got 10-8, so folks can use that as a gauge.
 

mr3cushion

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Right Doc.. In The Encyclopedia, Beard's writing about AB seem very truthful, and it was first hand. Artie came up in the carnival and he liked to rob suckers with his lemon hustle, but he would play tough players. When AB was really into pool, he was at the pool room from around nine am until closing. He may have 3-5 matches a day. He had a one year stint at that routine without losing one single match!! Beard's writing was not all complimentary toward AB.. He reported that Artie was a horrible, obnoxious drunk. He got arrested over and over. Once a plane had to make a special landing on a nonstop flight, to get Artie out of there. Later Artie quit drinking. Beard said he pulled AGAINST AB the majority of the time. lol. I could somewhat understand. He said watching him play one hole was like watching an exterminator kill one bug at at time.

Once Jack Cooney came around. This was not at Bensinger's. Artie was sort of leery and seemed a bit intimidated, knowing all about Jack's rep.. But this is what happened. Instead a guy named Grady Humphrey's played in between Artie and Jack, but Grady received 8 to 5 plus all the breaks. $500 per man, a real good bet at that time. After a few days of play without anybody forging ahead, Artie became frustrated by Jack's shot selections and the way he over moved when they had the lead. Artie suggested that they just quit and play each other. Jack said he would do that, but only if he got 10-8, so folks can use that as a gauge.
Jimmy; all you stated is true! Jack, is also a friend, but, not known for making a bad game, as was Artie! The correct game IMHO, both in their prime would have been, 9/8-8/7. Artie giving.
 

darmoose

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The main post was about which spot is greater, so if each player had one of the spots and they normally play even, whoever wins with the spots would be the better spot IMO.
You can't have one player take one of the spots and the other take the other spot. 10/8-9/8 assumes that the players split the breaks. Taking All the breaks assumes they are both playing to eight.
 

unoperro

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Never assume anything... 10/8 -9/8 maybe breaking to different pockets.

I agree with your assessment but...we can't know what we don't know
 

OldSchool

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Old school,

Could you clarify please, if the player getting spotted had chosen to take the ball spot (instead of taking ALL the breaks), would he have had half of the breaks? My assumption was, and Larry's analysis is, that the breaks would have been split 50/50 had he chosen the ball spot.. Seems confusion about this has caused some to misunderstand and create a new match to analyze rather than your original scenario.

:)

Yes, of course he would have had half of the breaks had he taken the 10-8/9-8 spot. As you and Larry knew, that was obvious, since I said that he plays approx. 1-1/2 balls under his opponent.
 

baby huey

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Just because you beat someone even doesn't mean you can give him weight. Giving up the break is a problem from the outset in that where do you go from there if you win? Ball weight is much better cause you can adjust. I often said when playing even you have to beat your opponent by at least 8/7. Otherwise you'll break even. So when you give up 8/7 you have to win by at least 8/6 to get the cash. If I was ever to give up the break one thing has to happen and that is he has to rotate pockets. You can't let him get in stroke breaking to the same side each game. Las Vegas Toby and Jack Cooney played with Toby giving up 10/9 and 9/8 some years back and I thought that game was dead even. Eventually after about 50 hours of play Jack came ahead but not much. Some old timers thought the best way to play was both players giving up either 9/8 or 10/9 on their respective breaks. IMO the break is worth 1-11/2 balls.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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As an outsider looking in, meaning not playing any OP, just how realistic is it to match up giving the guy the breaks! I mean is it very rare?

What I think is amazing is the match up of Artie and Jersey Red. I mean giving up the breaks to a player that is a top 5 OP in the world, just how does Red not bite at that one. 10-8 you would think Red would give him that anyway without getting the breaks.

How does Artie get any action after taking down J. Red. OP players must of been dodging him after that, you'd think!
I believe Artie went to Johnston City, if I am correct, but had to leave.

From experience, I'd say 30 yrs removed from playing plus putting alcohol on top of it then Artie was only shooting at about 10% of his in prime years. Pretty much a cripple against players in stroke.

For those that watch the Mika vs. Hawaiian Jimmy, we see a world champion, and of course someone that has had success at OP, get it handed to him when combining a spot with also giving up the break. In watching Jimmy play, I just had to wonder if this is what players elude to as the Ronnie game, of just sending so many balls to their hole. Great Match!

I really do not have much to add to this thread. Carry on, gentlemen!
Whitey
 

Kybanks

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I've read all the posts, the guy getting the spot (all the breaks) loses 2 games. Imo he would have lost more games with the ball spot. The game was out of line. I can count on one hand how many times I've given all the breaks, but I dont have enough fingers and toes to how many times I've given up 10/8 or better.
 

gulfportdoc

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Whitey, as I recall (and I could be wrong), Artie was playing and winning in one of Jansco's Stardust tournaments when a family emergency came up. Artie had to forfeit and leave.
 

darmoose

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Yes, of course he would have had half of the breaks had he taken the 10-8/9-8 spot. As you and Larry knew, that was obvious, since I said that he plays approx. 1-1/2 balls under his opponent.
Thanks for clarifying that; obviously it wasn't clear to..um...everyone............. :rolleyes:
 

jtompilot

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I give all the breaks to various people a few times a year. What’s the big deal, if you’re good enough to spot someone a ball or two you’re good enough to give up the breaks. There’s only a few players that consistently break very well and one of them is Tom Wirth.
If I was playing myself I’d rather give the breaks than 10-8
 

unoperro

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I give all the breaks to various people a few times a year. What’s the big deal, if you’re good enough to spot someone a ball or two you’re good enough to give up the breaks. There’s only a few players that consistently break very well and one of them is Tom Wirth.
If I was playing myself I’d rather give the breaks than 10-8
Always chumming😉

Hope all is well!
 

beatle

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looks like jim might be one of the few that understand what the value of giving the break means.
 

lll

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this is directed to lou
i would disagree that watching someone 30 years past their prime will tell you much about how they played in their prime
1) assuming they realize what they can and cannot do NOW...........will dictate their shot choices which are probably different now compared to then
2) their ability to execute the shots they think they can do now will not have the same precision as in their prime...... not froze to the rail or to a ball ..........more errors
jmho
icbw
 

beatle

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right on larry. artie played good. about the speed of any top player. didnt travel much and was known to be unbeatable on his home table. how he would have done on the road playing all the top players on their home tables who knows. probably wouldnt win. but he was known as a lock artist and what a high stakes gambler should be, especially back then when there was good easy action all around.
the only thing we do better after 30 years past our prime is brag about the past.
 
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lll

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right on larry. artie played good. about the speed of any top player. didnt travel much and was known to be unbeatable on his home table. how he would have done on the road playing all the top players on their home tables who knows. probably wouldnt win. but he was known as a lock artist and what a high stakes gambler should be, especially back then when there was good easy action all around.
the only thing we do better after 30 years past our prime is brag about the past.
one thing i can do better now
is eat more since my belly is bigger.....:eek:😂😂😂
 

lfigueroa

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this is directed to lou
i would disagree that watching someone 30 years past their prime will tell you much about how they played in their prime
1) assuming they realize what they can and cannot do NOW...........will dictate their shot choices which are probably different now compared to then
2) their ability to execute the shots they think they can do now will not have the same precision as in their prime...... not froze to the rail or to a ball ..........more errors
jmho
icbw

I have had the opportunity to see many players, far past their prime, and even with physical impairments, and been able to tell they were once great players.

The mistake you make is believing that what I was saying was about shot selection and the ability to execute, when what I was speaking of was how they stood at the table and their stroke. You can see an older, former champion and they still look good at the table. I think most experienced players here can vouch for this observation being true.

Lou Figueroa
 

lll

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I did have the opportunity to watch him play JH at the DCC ten years ago. Here's my account:

#####
And I also watched the first, and last, couple of hours of the Artie -- John Henderson match. I think the tape Chicago Mike was making of the whole match will speak for itself, but my opinion is that the “perfect, no mistake, smartest 1pocket of all time” that Artie rants about all the time is a figment of his imagination. In real life, all that would appear to mostly consist of is: every time it's your shot you stare at the table for five to 10 minutes while chalking your cue; then you bunt a ball up-table to your side; and then, you do not shoot, *at anything.* Ever. IOW, with this “strategy” you’re basically relying on your opponent dropping dead out of pure exhaustion, boredom, or both.

At one point in the final game, Artie had managed to bunt all the balls near his side pocket and I whispered to Mike, “This is it! We're about to see the perfect, no-mistake 1pocket Artie has been talking about -- he’s been working on this position for the last 42 shots and now, finally, at last, he’s going to gently pull the trigger and shoot a ball and the cluster along the side rail is going to open up like some beautiful tropical flower and the balls are going to stay on his side and he’s going to run out-- it’s going to be like some ancient Kung-fu martial arts Mortal Kombat Kill Bill thing where he’s just going to gently touch his opponent with the palm of his hand and his heart is going to just stop beating and it'll be like he just dropped dead in his tracks.”

But, alas, there was none of that.

And Artie kept bunting, and John kept shooting and won. Personally, I think John deserves a big tip of the hat for hanging in there for 14 hours of Artie’s stall.
#####

Having said all that, I have no doubt AB was a great player in his time and a true terror up in your neck of the woods. But the issue I was originally speaking to was about the player who did not travel. And from what I know, he fit the bill on that count.

Lou Figueroa
lou
your post above speaks of arties PLAY not stroke. thats how I came to my conclusion.
at the skill level artie played in his prime he obviously could get the job done with the stroke he had.
i guess he could have hustled you since you were not impressed with his presence or stroke
and if you two gambled ( artie in his prime/ you in yours) i would bet on artie as much as you would offer as a side bet :eek:
but you are entitled to your opinion
 
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