Adjusting spots, would like advice (Long post)

[Artie Bodendorfer]

If player A is entitled to 10/7 from player B and player C spots player B 10/7 I feel that a fair game between player A playing player C would be something close to 12/6 or 11/5. Possibly 11/5 on his break and 12/6 on player A's break. I believe that that would be a good spot to start with.

I figured that by adding 1 to 2 balls onto player C's total and deducting 1 to 2 ball from player A's total would be the fairest thing to do. It would be unfair to player A if 3 balls would be added to player C's total= 13/7, or 3 balls deducted from player A's total=10/4. So a somewhat compromise is possibly what we should be looking for, adjusting the spot to one game 12/6 and one game 11/5.

Billy I.

A fair game would be 11 to 5 and breack apeace if thats howe they are playing.

THe 12 to 6 is way out off line and it would be a stch up. Player C would have no chance beating player B at that game. 11 to 5 both games would be close.

This is another qouistion for a probability expert to figure out. And he could breack it down too the exacte percentage.

If someone has a probability expert have him do the math and he will come out with the exacte percentage.

I do not nohowe too do that. Or I could give you the exact percentage. For the game.

But they can come up with the correct answer.

 

[wincardona]

Billy.

I am nowhere near your level of handicapper. But I have, many times worked the money odds successfully. You can match up a game with someone well under you, and when they won't play, you can throw in the money odds (2/1 or 3/1 etc...If you are careful, you can make a good score...It doesn't take long, to find out if you are out of line.

One of the biggest scores I ever made, was giving up 9/7, and 3 to 1 on the money, per game...It was hard for the guy to quit, knowing that if he won a game or two in a row, he would be even...He played for a week...

As far as understanding what the right money line should be by negating ball spots and using money lines as a replacement, would be a huge advantage to the player that truly understands an accurate value that the money line would replace. The reason for this is that there are very few if any that can give you an accurate assessment in terms of what a ball spot is worth by placing a money line on a game.

Like Dick explained in the above post, that he had a player down that didn't understand that 3/1 was not enough to off set the balls that he needed to win with. But sometimes people get fascinated with the money line to the point that it is not only intriguing, but it also brings out the stubborness in us that we all have. Money lines is another way of winning the maximum from your opponent, and it would behoove any gambler to develope an understanding of the money line in pool when you are trying to make a game.

Billy I.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

If player A is entitled to 10/7 from player B and player C spots player B 10/7 I feel that a fair game between player A playing player C would be something close to 12/6 or 11/5. Possibly 11/5 on his break and 12/6 on player A's break. I believe that that would be a good spot to start with.

I figured that by adding 1 to 2 balls onto player C's total and deducting 1 to 2 ball from player A's total would be the fairest thing to do. It would be unfair to player A if 3 balls would be added to player C's total= 13/7, or 3 balls deducted from player A's total=10/4. So a somewhat compromise is possibly what we should be looking for, adjusting the spot to one game 12/6 and one game 11/5.

Billy I.

Bill,

I will not dispute that 12/6, 11/5 might be a good place to start a negotiation in that situation but I think the 12/6 might be too out of line for the weaker player to have a chance.

I'm just thinking about the few guys who gave me 10-7 matching up with the guys I gave 10-7. If they played 12/6 the weaker players would have no chance, I guarantee it. 11/5 would be much more even for them. Again, this is just from my own observations and opinions, I still believe that you are correct for a starting point in negotiations. They have to start somewhere.

P.S. Other factors would also figure into this. The weaker players that I spot 10-7 would be terrified in most cases playing the guys who gave me 10-7. They would not play their normal game against these better players.

Dennis

 

[u12armresl]

For those type of games now I play 8 to 5 and 20 to 13 but your line on money odds I believe is far off. The above odds are even ball games between someone who historically beats me 10to7 ball count but in an even game with odds adjustment I don't get hurt near as bad.

Over 4 sessions he's won at least 10 games at the most 12 games and I've won 4 games one time and average 3 games. So the usual difference between us playing even is 7 to 8 games

I like the odds part, but against someone who played much better than the guy im currently playing I'd have to make the odds much higher because the probability of me winning even 1 game drops.

The above spots are predicated on ball spots, but there are other kinds of spots that would negate ball spots. For instance break and ball in hand spots, but the uncertainties involved make these types of spots too difficult to put an exact imprint on. Ball in hand to one player may be worth more than ball in hand to another player, even if both players are entitled to 12/6 from their opponent. I'm hoping you people can understand the reasons behind what I say and why I say it.

Than their are the scratches don't count spot that could be possibly added on to a ball spot to make up the difference of the spot. But than again one would have to know the strength of scratches don't count to determine what the final spot would be. We've been down that road here on onepocket.org with mixed results. But if you go back to that thread I would tend to side with Rodney on that issue. Lets move forward.

Than there are money lines put on a game that would negate ball spots. A money line would be very interesting and definitely a good way for two people to gamble. Money lines are an option to bet just about every sport, foot ball, basket ball, hockey, prize fights, and obviously base ball. I'm not certain what 8/7 would be worth in a money line but 11/10 on the money couldn't be far off. I would guess that 9/7 would be worth somewhere around 6/5 or 1.25/100 where as 10/7 may be worth somewhere around 1.35/100 or possibly 7/5.

Keep in mind these money lines are a rough graph and not to be taken as bible. But never the less, reasonable in opening negotiations.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

Bill,

I will not dispute that 12/6, 11/5 might be a good place to start a negotiation in that situation but I think the 12/6 might be too out of line for the weaker player to have a chance.

I'm just thinking about the few guys who gave me 10-7 matching up with the guys I gave 10-7. If they played 12/6 the weaker players would have no chance, I guarantee it. 11/5 would be much more even for them. Again, this is just from my own observations and opinions, I still believe that you are correct for a starting point in negotiations. They have to start somewhere.

P.S. Other factors would also figure into this. The weaker players that I spot 10-7 would be terrified in most cases playing the guys who gave me 10-7. They would not play their normal game against these better players.

Dennis

Dennis, in no way am I suggesting that the line I made is a solid line, I really don't have any experience watching or talking to anyone that is experienced with this type of match up. My suggestion was only a possible way to start negotiations. If there is any one out there that has first hand experience in situations like this I would be the first to listen, believe it or not. It sounds to me that you have experience with situations similar to the one discussed, so I would have to agree with what you say.

For some reason Artie also agrees that 11/5 would be a more competitive starting spot. So with both of you agreeing that 12/6 would not be right and 11/5 a much closer spot I would have to agree that 11/5 is the right spot to start negotiations. 11/5 it is.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

For those type of games now I play 8 to 5 and 20 to 13 but your line on money odds I believe is far off. The above odds are even ball games between someone who historically beats me 10to7 ball count but in an even game with odds adjustment I don't get hurt near as bad.

Over 4 sessions he's won at least 10 games at the most 12 games and I've won 4 games one time and average 3 games. So the usual difference between us playing even is 7 to 8 games

I like the odds part, but against someone who played much better than the guy im currently playing I'd have to make the odds much higher because the probability of me winning even 1 game drops.

You could be right about the 10/7 spot being worth more than 7/5 or $140 to $100.

Lets try to break it down. If I was getting a ball 8/7 from someone would I be willing to take 11/10 on the money and play even? Maybe not but I certainly would take 6/5 and play.

If I was getting 9/7 as a ball spot would I take 6/5 on the money and play even? Maybe not again. I agree now that I have been some what educated that 7/5 on the money would be closer, and I would clearly take 3/2 on the money $150 to $100. instead of 9/7 as a ball spot.

If I was getting 10/7 as a ball spot would I take 8/5 on the money $160 to $100 and play even? Maybe not but I will certainly take 9/5 $180 to $100.

You are getting 8/5 as a ball spot that equates to around 10/6, maybe not quite that much but not much difference. You say that you average winning 1 out of 4 games which equates to 3/1 $300 to $100 on the money. Sounds a little high but it could be about right. After all 8/5 and 10/6 is quite a jump from 10/7 as a ball spot, so the money line figures to take a big hit.

There are a lot of spots that fall between 10/7 and 8/5 or 10/6. There is 11/7 and 9/6 to mention a few, and there are a combination of the two like 10/7 one game and 11/7 another. Also 10/7 one game and 9/6 one game. So to jump from 10/7 which equates to $180 to $100 to 8/5 or 10/6 It could possibly jump to $300 to $100 on the money line.

This discussion to me has put things in a better prospective in evaluating money odds for 10/7 and up. I think so.

Billy I.

 

[lll]

Billy.

I am nowhere near your level of handicapper. But I have, many times worked the money odds successfully. You can match up a game with someone well under you, and when they won't play, you can throw in the money odds (2/1 or 3/1 etc...If you are careful, you can make a good score...It doesn't take long, to find out if you are out of line.

One of the biggest scores I ever made, was giving up 9/7, and 3 to 1 on the money, per game...It was hard for the guy to quit, knowing that if he won a game or two in a row, he would be even...He played for a week...

dick
thanks for posting an opinion that had no digs
just sayin

 

[lll]

for you guys who are giving the spot i cant comment because im not your speed
but as the weaker player if you are getting more than 2 balls i think at some point you have no chance
dippys rediculous spots of 18-4 excluded
your thoughts
again my opinion is the stronger player will keep squeezing and make less mistakes

 

[androd]

for you guys who are giving the spot i cant comment because im not your speed
but as the weaker player if you are getting more than 2 balls i think at some point you have no chance
dippys rediculous spots of 18-4 excluded
your thoughts
again my opinion is the stronger player will keep squeezing and make less mistakes

There's some spot that makes every game even. You may have to play a few different ways to find it, but it's there.
Rod.

 

[lll]

There's some spot that makes every game even. You may have to play a few different ways to find it, but it's there.
Rod.

rod with all due respect and i mean this
when its close enough ie 9/7 or 10/8 ok
when you start talking 10/4 or even 10 /6/5 i think the spread is too great and the weaker player has no chance
jmho
icbw

 

[u12armresl]

I might be confusing ya Billy with all the numbers and me not knowing much about the differences, but the 8-5 and 20-13 are lines not ball spots.

You could be right about the 10/7 spot being worth more than 7/5 or $140 to $100.

Lets try to break it down. If I was getting a ball 8/7 from someone would I be willing to take 11/10 on the money and play even? Maybe not but I certainly would take 6/5 and play.

If I was getting 9/7 as a ball spot would I take 6/5 on the money and play even? Maybe not again. I agree now that I have been some what educated that 7/5 on the money would be closer, and I would clearly take 3/2 on the money $150 to $100. instead of 9/7 as a ball spot.

If I was getting 10/7 as a ball spot would I take 8/5 on the money $160 to $100 and play even? Maybe not but I will certainly take 9/5 $180 to $100.

You are getting 8/5 as a ball spot that equates to around 10/6, maybe not quite that much but not much difference. You say that you average winning 1 out of 4 games which equates to 3/1 $300 to $100 on the money. Sounds a little high but it could be about right. After all 8/5 and 10/6 is quite a jump from 10/7 as a ball spot, so the money line figures to take a big hit.

There are a lot of spots that fall between 10/7 and 8/5 or 10/6. There is 11/7 and 9/6 to mention a few, and there are a combination of the two like 10/7 one game and 11/7 another. Also 10/7 one game and 9/6 one game. So to jump from 10/7 which equates to $180 to $100 to 8/5 or 10/6 It could possibly jump to $300 to $100 on the money line.

This discussion to me has put things in a better prospective in evaluating money odds for 10/7 and up. I think so.

Billy I.

 

[u12armresl]

One funny thing is using the 180-100 numbers, at the end of a typical session my opponent would be up lets say 12 games, I'm up 4 games

Opponent 1100 Me 720 still stuck 380 funny part would be that for an 8 game difference I'm only stuck that little.

You could be right about the 10/7 spot being worth more than 7/5 or $140 to $100.

Lets try to break it down. If I was getting a ball 8/7 from someone would I be willing to take 11/10 on the money and play even? Maybe not but I certainly would take 6/5 and play.

If I was getting 9/7 as a ball spot would I take 6/5 on the money and play even? Maybe not again. I agree now that I have been some what educated that 7/5 on the money would be closer, and I would clearly take 3/2 on the money $150 to $100. instead of 9/7 as a ball spot.

If I was getting 10/7 as a ball spot would I take 8/5 on the money $160 to $100 and play even? Maybe not but I will certainly take 9/5 $180 to $100.

You are getting 8/5 as a ball spot that equates to around 10/6, maybe not quite that much but not much difference. You say that you average winning 1 out of 4 games which equates to 3/1 $300 to $100 on the money. Sounds a little high but it could be about right. After all 8/5 and 10/6 is quite a jump from 10/7 as a ball spot, so the money line figures to take a big hit.

There are a lot of spots that fall between 10/7 and 8/5 or 10/6. There is 11/7 and 9/6 to mention a few, and there are a combination of the two like 10/7 one game and 11/7 another. Also 10/7 one game and 9/6 one game. So to jump from 10/7 which equates to $180 to $100 to 8/5 or 10/6 It could possibly jump to $300 to $100 on the money line.

This discussion to me has put things in a better prospective in evaluating money odds for 10/7 and up. I think so.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

One funny thing is using the 180-100 numbers, at the end of a typical session my opponent would be up lets say 12 games, I'm up 4 games

Opponent 1100 Me 720 still stuck 380 funny part would be that for an 8 game difference I'm only stuck that little.

$180 TO $100 is the money line for the 10/7 game. If your playing some one getting 8/5 in a ball spot than your entitled to at least $250 to $100 in the money line.

OPPONENT 12 GAMES = $1200

ME 4 GAMES= $1000

At 250 TO $100 your stuck $200 after 16 games, losing 12 games winning only 4 games.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

I might be confusing ya Billy with all the numbers and me not knowing much about the differences, but the 8-5 and 20-13 are lines not ball spots.

Yes you do have me completely confused, and I thought only Artie could do that.

Billy I.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Yes you do have me completely confused, and I thought only Artie could do that.

Billy I.

I see thier money lines . Not ball spreads. You didnt no that Billy. And youre a doctor.

I have known u12armrresel since we went too different schools.

Even with my great spelling at least you understood what I was saying.

I think I am going to take camunication skills. So I dont get lost.

I think Billy is the best doctor pool player ever in life.

I herd he even has a cure for doging it.

But nobody dogs it they just miss.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

again my opinion is the stronger player will keep squeezing and make less mistakes

Larry,

You have the idea in your head that all one-pocket players on the planet play AB's style. They don't. Most have personalities that come out in their game. As you saw with the shot that Rafael Martinez shot at the end of that game 1. Why do you think he shot the 5-railer? Nobody on the planet would say that's the right shot from there (with the possible exception of one moron) when you need two balls so why did he do it? Maybe he's afraid to win and that's his way of failing to win while still appearing to be giving it a shot. People play many games with themselves while at the table. All of us who've been around for awhile have seen guys like that.

Maybe he was betting on Ochoa, you never know.

Maybe he's a better gambler than a tournament player, that would be the weakness to have.

Maybe he has a need to be a flashy, show-off type guy. I've never seen him before that match so I sure don't know what possessed him to shoot a shot so stupid that an 8 year old would know better.

Again Larry, you are giving the majority of players way too much credit for being intelligent & savvy players of this game. There are a million RM's out there that don't play anywhere near his speed but they do the same stupid things for years on end. You only need two things to beat guys like that: a close, fair game and a stronger mental game than he has.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

rod with all due respect and i mean this
when its close enough ie 9/7 or 10/8 ok
when you start talking 10/4 or even 10 /6/5 i think the spread is too great and the weaker player has no chance
jmho
icbw

Larry,

Listen to Rod. Get to the poolroom already. This is not a intellectual exercise, get on the table and do it and then you'll know. A fair game can always be made, I've lost many of them .

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Thats very rude RBL...!!!

Thats very rude RBL...!!!

=Cowboy Dennis

Why do you think he shot the 5-railer? Nobody on the planet would say that's the right shot from there (with the possible exception of one moron) when you need two balls so why did he do it? Maybe he's afraid to win and that's his way of failing to win while still appearing to be giving it a shot. People play many games with themselves while at the table. All of us who've been around for awhile have seen guys like that.

Dennis

Dear 8 mile road 'trailer trash' breath..

Just because a guy kicks at two railers, (with reverse english) does not give you the right to call the Ghost a "moron"...He actually makes very intelligent decisions sometimes...I've never seen one, but someone from Chicago told me he did, so it must be so...

 

[petie]

The hit and 1,2,3,4 picks makes a huge difference. 4,5,6 etc. no count makes a huge difference. 1.2.3 stop makes a difference. There are lots and lots of ways to make a game. I just can't say with confidence how they rank or when one is better than another other than the mathematical advantage.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

The hit and 1,2,3,4 picks makes a huge difference. 4,5,6 etc. no count makes a huge difference. 1.2.3 stop makes a difference. There are lots and lots of ways to make a game. I just can't say with confidence how they rank or when one is better than another other than the mathematical advantage.

I wasn't even thinking about blank & stop games, good point Petie. Larry, how would play Efren if he played you 1 & stop? That means he could never shoot more than one time every inning at the table. You could crash the stack and hope to shit one in and if you don't, so what, he gets one shot and sits down. That would give you at least 8 attempts to "crash" the stack and run a few balls. He could have twelve balls by his pocket and it wouldn't matter to you because he gets one shot and sits down. You would limit Efren to no 8 & outs, he could never run more than a 1 & out. Would you play him 8-8?

This is how games are made .

Dennis