Alternatives to Double Elimination format

NH Steve

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We have round robin options. Break down into smaller groups and each player plays each other player in that group. Maybe a set number of games such as 2 games (one break each), and top player or players from each group advance based on games won/lost and ball count differential as a tie breaker.

Chip tournament -- each player gets a certain number of chips, and basically they continually rotate into the next available table, attempting to unseat the prior winner from that table.

Both of these formats can end with a smaller finals field that could be a standard bracket, or???

Things to consider:
  • It's nice for players to mix with multiple players instead of potentially going "two and out" in their first two matches of double elimination.
  • The number of available tournament tables is always a question, but the format and number of matches can be tailored to the number of tables available and the number of hours we have access to them
  • When we want to finish up at the end.
  • Who is willing to run such a tournament and how much extra work and/or software does it take?
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve, I believe this is a thread for MOT 2020, which will be West Coast! Right?

If this is correct then I would vote for Cal. Billiards to once again host the event. This gives us a known number of tables (16) so we can formulate a RR format.

With an unknown # of tables to work with then only one RR format works. And that is Mr3cushion's on 8 tables. His as you know is 8 groups of 4 players playing a race to 3, essentially a 3/3 format, which is very intriguing for it maintains the traditional 3/3 format combining with a RR. 50/50 chance of advancing to rd. of 16.
Not even a hard core 3/3 traditionalist could balk at this format.
In reviewing the last Senior bracket the avg. score was 3/1 which translates to 4 games played. Therefore it can be estimated that each player playing 3 other players will play 12 games before the rd. of 16.
Of course this format could be played upon 12 tables or more, and I do not think the next MOT location picked will have less than 12 tables to use.

For me I see no reason to discuss other RR formats when the # of tables available is undetermined. I would call for a vote on going with Mr3cushions format right now, unless more tables are available! Whitey
 
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youngstown

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Alternatives to Double Elimination format

I have never run a OP tourney but I would very much like to run a OP chip tourney. I’ve run dozens of tournaments and chip tourneys always run smoothly. With a few tweaks here and there I think this could be the way to go. Chip tourneys utilize tables better than any tourney because minutes after someone loses another player jumps in to fill his spot. You get the most play for your money. It can be tailored perfectly if we just decide what we want. Single game? Race? Run as a qualifier for a final day or run to completion? Limit how many times a winner can stay on the table in order to get others more matches? One of the best things about it is that any number of players can enter. No more 32 player limit. Does more members getting more play = a more successful annual gathering?

 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve,
If you want this discussion to be hypothetical and include the possibility of 16 tables, then I am in for discussing more types of RR formats. I believe the players in 2020 will opt for a place that has 16 tables anyway.

May I suggest that you add to your list to also consider: Player fatigue/ burn out from long hours of play, and to have considerations for a format that will allow time for socializing and matchups. Which means; a format that has some elimination factors on Saturday to get to the rd. of 16.

There is no socializing or match up time if the tournament format just keeps going, and then 8 top scoring players via on Sunday's Final. For me, I see no reason discussing these types of formats, for I do not believe the MOT is just a get together to play only a tournament.

Unless a tournament like this can conclude with 8 finalists by say 6 pm Saturday. But past that I would not be interested! Whitey
 

baby huey

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In our events, we usually have three days to start and complete the tournament. That being friday, saturday and sunday. I don't see how we can include a RR format. But, I wish we could. There might be one way to do so. If we had 32 players we could divide up into 8 brackets of 4 players each then we could play down to one player in a RR format per bracket and on sunday play it off in single elimination format with those 8 players.. I think we'd have to race to 2 games and perhaps race to 3 for the final match. Other considerations, would be how to score the brackets if there is no clear winner. In other words tie breakers might have to apply. Maybe using ball differentials or a one game playoff per bracket if necessary. Those races to 2 games should decrease the time spent per match and allow more time for the socializing we all want to be involbed in.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve, as you know I ran a complete thread on RR.
Here is my take on it when having 16 tables available.

1. Darmoose; 4 groups of 8 playing ea. player 3 games = 21 games/player. Play tell completion of 7 rds. Take top two finishers from ea. group = 8 players into final on Sunday. My take; To go to this for a first time trial in a MOT, I believe is to risky, could run overtime and late on Saturday, thus leaving no time to socialize and match up, only 25% chance to advance.
* may work for the next MOT providing a lesser aggressive RR leaves more time to play more games* Should be eliminated from further discussions at this point, for a first trial RR in a MOT, IMO. Your thoughts?

2. Tobermory; 4 groups of 8. Each player plays 7 other players twice =14 games. Round should get over mid-afternoon Saturday. Then goes into a 16 player 4 groups of 4 with players being mixed, so they do not play the same players. Rd. of 16 would have ea. player having played 10 other different players. 8 players goes into a single elimination format on Sunday. Maintains a 50/50 chance of advancing throughout tournament!
*Note; if the initial rd. of 32 goes to long beyond the time projected for Saturday then the rd. of 16 could be void and the 8 top finishers go into Sundays final, this is a safe guard agreed upon before the tournament. This was a favorable format for players were guaranteed 14 games. Possibly eliminates 16 players on mid-afternoon Saturday to socialize and match up.

3. Mr3cushion; is 8 groups of 4 playing a race to 3. then going into 4 groups of 4 on 8 tables for rd. of 16. 8 players going into Sundays final. This is the quickest way to get to the rd. of 16. It maintains a race to 3 format, which means after each match there is a winner, which has some meaning! The avg. match of Seniors was score 3/1 so each player can expect to play on the avg. 12 total games against 3 players, before the rd. of 16. Maintains a 50/50 chance of advancing throughout tournament!
* This is tried and true method in Billiards, for a first time trial of RR it may be the way to go. Can adopt to 12 tables if establishment want to do that on Saturday. The apparent draw back in regards to other RR formats is that you play less players.

So IMO a vote or which RR would be between Tobermory's or Mr3cushion's!

I would be in favor of a poll taken on these two RR formats.
Then a poll of the RR taken against the Youngstownkid format, of which I can not speak upon, not up to speed on it.

Steve, I hope this is helpful in getting your thread going. I feel many of the original posters on the original MOT RR thread are burnt out, so probably there will not be many posts. Whitey
 
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youngstown

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Alternatives to Double Elimination format

I think to have an in person group discussion in Philly would go a long way towards coming to an understanding (even if not an agreement) for a future event.
 

Scrzbill

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Santa Cruz, Ca, Milpitas Ca, Portland, Oregon, Chicago, ill. I can’t vote because I haven’t gone to all three MOT’s. 2020 location suggestions. I will only be going to the seniors event and to Wild Melee with Elvis
 

jtompilot

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Steve, I believe this is a thread for MOT 2020, which will be West Coast! Right?

If this is correct then I would vote for Cal. Billiards to once again host the event. This gives us a known number of tables (16) so we can formulate a RR format.

With an unknown # of tables to work with then only one RR format works. And that is Mr3cushion's on 8 tables. His as you know is 8 groups of 4 players playing a race to 3, essentially a 3/3 format, which is very intriguing for it maintains the traditional 3/3 format combining with a RR. 50/50 chance of advancing to rd. of 16.
Not even a hard core 3/3 traditionalist could balk at this format.
In reviewing the last Senior bracket the avg. score was 3/1 which translates to 4 games played. Therefore it can be estimated that each player playing 3 other players will play 12 games before the rd. of 16.
Of course this format could be played upon 12 tables or more, and I do not think the next MOT location picked will have less than 12 tables to use.

For me I see no reason to discuss other RR formats when the # of tables available is undetermined. I would call for a vote on going with Mr3cushions format right now, unless more tables are available! Whitey

Hey Whitey, how you doing brother. I want to address only one item on your post.

If I was king, the MOT would alternate between Lacy’s and California Billiards. They are the finest rooms with the best equipment. No other rooms come close that I know of considering the number of tables available and the quality of the equipment.

Jim
 

NH Steve

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I have never run a OP tourney but I would very much like to run a OP chip tourney. I’ve run dozens of tournaments and chip tourneys always run smoothly. With a few tweaks here and there I think this could be the way to go. Chip tourneys utilize tables better than any tourney because minutes after someone loses another player jumps in to fill his spot. You get the most play for your money. It can be tailored perfectly if we just decide what we want. Single game? Race? Run as a qualifier for a final day or run to completion? Limit how many times a winner can stay on the table in order to get others more matches? One of the best things about it is that any number of players can enter. No more 32 player limit. Does more members getting more play = a more successful annual gathering?

I know that Michael's in Cincinnati is very interested in hosting us -- and his location is really a great central location that a lot of our members can easily get to. However he does not have the 16 tables we seem to be leaning toward, even though the 12 or 13 he has would probably be just fine, as long as we planned it out, even with a 32 player DE format. But it sounds like perfect for what you have in mind!!
 

NH Steve

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I think that with the RR format, we do not need to try to MAXIMIZE the number of matches in the preliminary rounds -- the nature of RR already ensures that everyone will gets an even distribution of extra matches in the preliminary rounds. So I don't think the RR should be pushed to a grueling schedule.

With that in mind, I think you could play two games for each match -- each player getting one break -- and keep score both in games won/lost and ball count, with ball count being a tie breaker. I believe the challonge.com software can automatically track that as long as we enter the results. Playing two games removes one variable in the preliminary round in that you would not have any hill-hill extra games. Of course game lengths also can vary a lot!! I believe in some of The Hague One Pocket tournaments, they played one game of one ball One Pocket for tie-breakers :D

One thing that is possible I believe in RR format is multiple players in a tie at the end of a round. Am I right about that??? That is harder to deal with than two players in a tie for sure. If you play "to a winner" in each individual match (such as a race to 2, etc), then at least you have a head-to-head tie breaker available, but I still think you might be able to have three or more involved in a tie. Maybe that is unlikely if we are keeping ball counts also though.
 

jtompilot

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I posted this awhile back....Here it is again.


#1 Report Post
Old 11-10-2018, 04:24 PM


21st Century WBT Round Robin Format
I think this is what we are all looking for. Take a close look, allot going on, but not.


Thursday.... and every day,TD blind draws opponents.

Each player breaks once, you only play 2 racks with each opponent..

End of Thursday, you've played 4 racks of one pocket.

Friday....same thing, blind draw 3 names. ='s 6 racks played.

Saturday comes....blind draw again 4 names ='s 8 racks.

By now, all players have played 18 racks.....and with NINE different opponents. Normally you gotta win 9 matches to play 9 different players, and WOW your mixin' it up with waaaaaaaaaaaaay more players than ever before, even if your not that good, you still will play ALLOT with many different people. PERFECT.


If time runs short or long? This format, that can be adjusted....this format is Very accommodating to change .

If each game averages 45 min, X 18 games that's Equal to 13.5 hours of play, over a period of 3 days. Hummmm, we could always tweak it a little and and make one day have one less round or one more????.

Here's the simple view.

Thursday 2 rounds
Friday 3 rounds
Sat. 4 rounds

Each played has now played 9 different opponents with a total number of racks played 18. X 45 minutes ='s 13.5 hrs of play over 3 days.

Each day we play a little more.

That works nicely as we oldsters settle in the pool room and area and the travels it took us to get there, AND WE'RE GUARANTEED TO PLAY 3 DAYS STRAIGHT.

Saturday night....END OF PLAY.

Add up stats, pick top players.



Sunday Finals, play races. Or the rest of the group, since tables will be open, do a single elim. race to 2 along side the main event.

I think your missing some math somewhere or I just don’t understand math.

So each player plays 18 games. There’s 32 players, so that’s 16 matches. Wouldn’t that be 18x16=288 total games. 216 hours of play in three days:eek:
 

Island Drive

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I think your missing some math somewhere or I just don’t understand math.

So each player plays 18 games. There’s 32 players, so that’s 16 matches. Wouldn’t that be 18x16=288 total games. 216 hours of play in three days:eek:

I did take a close look at the old post, I will redo it. I definitely was ''off'' that day. Thx.
 

Island Drive

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I posted this awhile back....Here it is again. I did redo it 3-2-19, the pilot told me about my miscue, sorry. I'm chalkin' up now.

I did have some typos, and also you guyz are doing a Fri. Sat. Sunday final day, not Thur one round (oldsters event) then the weekend, sorry.

I think this is what we are all looking for. Take a close look, allot going on, but not.

Each match is 2 games, each player breaks one time.

Friday.... and every day, TD blind draws opponents from a bucket. You can NOT play the same player twice.

Friday you play 4 opponents ='s 8 games.

Sat. the same, blind draw 4 NEW names.

Now you've played 8 different players in two day's 16 racks of one pocket.

Normally if you play 8 matches your in the money. With this format you will play ALLOT, & with many different players.

If time runs short or long? This format, that can be adjusted....this format is Very accommodating to change .

If each game averages 45 min, X 16 games that's Equal to 12 hours of play, over a period of 2 days.
Here's the simple view.

Friday 4 rounds
Sat. 4 rounds
Sunday Finals and side bar single elim tournament ??? Or???

Will need score cards for each match.

Add up stats, pick top 6 ??? players. Rest of tables are open for matching up or single elim. event.

Sunday Finals, play races to ???.
 
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12squared

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So I don't think the RR should be pushed to a grueling schedule.

With that in mind, I think you could play two games for each match -- each player getting one break -- and keep score both in games won/lost and ball count, with ball count being a tie breaker. I believe the challonge.com software can automatically track that as long as we enter the results. Playing two games removes one variable in the preliminary round in that you would not have any hill-hill extra games. Of course game lengths also can vary a lot!! I believe in some of The Hague One Pocket tournaments, they played one game of one ball One Pocket for tie-breakers :D

One thing that is possible I believe in RR format is multiple players in a tie at the end of a round. Am I right about that??? That is harder to deal with than two players in a tie for sure. If you play "to a winner" in each individual match (such as a race to 2, etc), then at least you have a head-to-head tie breaker available, but I still think you might be able to have three or more involved in a tie. Maybe that is unlikely if we are keeping ball counts also though.

Another possible option to complete each match in a RR format is that the game is won when someone gets to 20 points total (or 15?, etc). This format was used in a single elimination tourney at Sacramento HardTimes the night before the main 1pocket event and it went well. So lag for the break (alternate breaks), play till all 15 balls are pocketed and rerack, break and continue the game/count. Break again if necessary. First to 20 wins the match. ~ the best part of this type format is that there is a winner each match as well as point differentials to help w/tie breakers.

John Henderson may know of this format and if so, maybe he could weigh in whether or not this may work for us. It sure was fun although not traditional onepocket.

See you all in Philly.

Dave
 
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youngstown

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Alternatives to Double Elimination format

I know that Michael's in Cincinnati is very interested in hosting us -- and his location is really a great central location that a lot of our members can easily get to. However he does not have the 16 tables we seem to be leaning toward, even though the 12 or 13 he has would probably be just fine, as long as we planned it out, even with a 32 player DE format. But it sounds like perfect for what you have in mind!!



Agreed. I talked to John Longabout it and we had a hard time finding a good weekend to select. Any thoughts on when is good?
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I posted this awhile back....Here it is again. I did redo it 3-2-19, the pilot told me about my miscue, sorry. I'm chalkin' up now.

I did have some typos, and also you guyz are doing a Fri. Sat. Sunday final day, not Thur one round (oldsters event) then the weekend, sorry.

I think this is what we are all looking for. Take a close look, allot going on, but not.

Each match is 2 games, each player breaks one time.

Friday.... and every day, TD blind draws opponents from a bucket. You can NOT play the same player twice.

Friday you play 4 opponents ='s 8 games.

Sat. the same, blind draw 4 NEW names.

Now you've played 8 different players in two day's 16 racks of one pocket.

Normally if you play 8 matches your in the money. With this format you will play ALLOT, & with many different players.

If time runs short or long? This format, that can be adjusted....this format is Very accommodating to change .

If each game averages 45 min, X 16 games that's Equal to 12 hours of play, over a period of 2 days.
Here's the simple view.

Friday 4 rounds
Sat. 4 rounds
Sunday Finals and side bar single elim tournament ??? Or???

Will need score cards for each match.

Add up stats, pick top 6 ??? players. Rest of tables are open for matching up or single elim. event.

Sunday Finals, play races to ???.

Bill, I do not think your numbers add up. Each player playing 8 matches is not possible with a 32 player field. I believe it would be: Friday 3 rds. (3 players), and Saturday 4 rds. (4 players), for a 32 player field. Now if we went to a 36 player field then you would play 8 matches as you suggest.

Essentially, what you are suggesting is very similar to the 4 groups of 8 players playing each other 2x, except after each rd. of Fri. (3rds.) 'then a blind draw takes place'. Same with going into Saturday (4rds.). Then the top 6 ??? go into Sunday's final format.

The above (your format) is actually the safe guard to the 4 groups of 8 playing 2x, whereas if this format runs to long on Saturday, then the rd. of 16 would be void and the top 8 finishers go directly into Sundays 8 man single elimination. *Steve likes the idea of 8 player single elimination final*.

Lets Brain Storm a little bit! If we decided to forgo the rd. 16 then the players could go to 4 groups of 8 (or your blind draw idea) playing ea. other a 'race to 2'. This would end up with a winner of each match. Solves the possible multiple ties of 2x. And would placate Darmoose's 3x=21 games.

Each player would be guaranteed 14 games '+'. I believe this could be played out by 6pm Saturday. Leaving those players that are not to burnt out time to match up.

This leaves us with the decision; 'do we want to forgo the rd. of 16'? tough decisions. When making these types of decisions, I believe it is important to realize that this is going to be the first time RR MOT. So therefore if we error on the side of caution, we would still have a successful tournament, that could be fine tuned for subsequent MOT's. Whitey
 
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Island Drive

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Bill, I do not think your numbers add up. Each player playing 8 matches is not possible with a 32 player field. I believe it would be: Friday 3 rds. (3 players), and Saturday 4 rds. (4 players), for a 32 player field. Now if we went to a 36 player field then you would play 8 matches as you suggest.

Essentially, what you are suggesting is very similar to the 4 groups of 8 players playing each other 2x, except after each rd. of Fri. (3rds.) 'then a blind draw takes place'. Same with going into Saturday (4rds.). Then the top 6 ??? go into Sunday's final format.

The above (your format) is actually the safe guard to the 4 groups of 8 playing 2x, whereas if this format runs to long on Saturday, then the rd. of 16 would be void and the top 8 finishers go directly into Sundays 8 man single elimination. *Steve likes the idea of 8 player single elimination final*.

Lets Brain Storm a little bit! If we decided to forgo the rd. 16 then the players could go to 4 groups of 8 (or your blind draw idea) playing ea. other a 'race to 2'. This would end up with a winner of each match. Solves the possible multiple ties of 2x. And would placate Darmoose's 3x=21 games.

Each player would be guaranteed 14 games '+'. I believe this could be played out by 6pm Saturday. Leaving those players that are not to burnt out time to match up.

This leaves us with the decision; 'do we want to forgo the rd. of 16'? tough decisions. When making these types of decisions, I believe it is important to realize that this is going to be the first time RR MOT. So therefore if we error on the side of caution, we would still have a successful tournament, that could be fine tuned for subsequent MOT's. Whitey

IF IT NEEDS TO BE 3 ROUNDS....THAT WORKS ONE THING us OLD GUYS REALIZED.... IS WE DON'T ENJOY TRAVELLING THAT FAR THEN....GO 2 AND OUT AND PLAY ONLY 2 DIFFERENT PLAYERS, MOST WOULD RATHER GO PLAY MANY DIFFERENT OPPONENTS/STYLES AND CREATE RELATIONSHIPS AND HAVE MORE FUN. THAT'S THE MIND SET OF MANY older OUT OF STROKE PLAYERS, CEPT FOR hENDY :).


.......................
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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IF IT NEEDS TO BE 3 ROUNDS....THAT WORKS ONE THING us OLD GUYS REALIZED.... IS WE DON'T ENJOY TRAVELLING THAT FAR THEN....GO 2 AND OUT AND PLAY ONLY 2 DIFFERENT PLAYERS, MOST WOULD RATHER GO PLAY MANY DIFFERENT OPPONENTS/STYLES AND CREATE RELATIONSHIPS AND HAVE MORE FUN. THAT'S THE MIND SET OF MANY older OUT OF STROKE PLAYERS, CEPT FOR hENDY :).


.......................
Well put, I agree Hendy is not out of stroke, but he was one of the first to support RR play, and I believe the first to post support of it on the RR MOT Thread, pg. 17. Henry's post on the MOT RR Thread went about like this; I will like any format that I do not have to wait around to play. John H. and Henry's posts are my two favorites, now yours is included, great response! Whitey
 
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