for Larry

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,693
From
Dallas Tx.
For any one needing help with their end game, like Larry mentioned that he would like for some one to help him I would suggest that we should do some player matches where each player needed one to three balls apiece, and a combination of one opposed to two balls needed and such. That way we could offer opinions on shot choices based on different strategies, and then look at what shot the player chose.

Billy I.
 

MARK..HOU TX

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
376
wincardona said:
For any one needing help with their end game, like Larry mentioned that he would like for some one to help him I would suggest that we should do some player matches where each player needed one to three balls apiece, and a combination of one opposed to two balls needed and such. That way we could offer opinions on shot choices based on different strategies, and then look at what shot the player chose.

Billy I.
Good Idea..I'd be interested in that.
I assume that your back is feelin better? :)
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
19,057
From
vero beach fl
billy ,
thanks for starting a thread to help me.
ill look for end game scenarios as starting points for discussions
larry
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
lll said:
billy ,
thanks for starting a thread to help me.
ill look for end game scenarios as starting points for discussions
larry

Until the whole thing started going south, I had always considered my end game moving the best part of my game....One thing that stands out, to me, is the necessity to make a good hit on the ball you are shooting at. By that I mean, a lot of shots will require a thin cut, and good positioning of both the OB and for sure the cue ball.
Of course this is true in all pool games, but it is an absolute given, in the end game of one pocket. when your opponent is leaving you, oft times with few options, and
often 8'-9' ft away, on the end rail...you are trying your best, to bring him back, to an equally awkward position.

I'm sure we'll get to more specifics later on, and yes, the score is always an important factor..But, even more important is executing your long range safeties, without scratching or selling out, simply by making a bad hit.

This requires real focus, good hits, and good decisions. How many games have you seen lost, by one careless shot, with only a few balls on the table.
I believe the end game takes more patience, than any other part of the game, learn it well, concentrate hard, and you'll find yourself winning a lot of games you didn't think you could.

It is a more much more aggressive game now, then it was a while back, but not all games are '8 and outs'. The end game still comes up a lot, especially in tournaments...and hi $$$$ cash games. (well, maybe not too much in Viffer's match-ups...;))
 
Last edited:

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
SJDinPHX said:
Until the whole thing started going south, I had always considered my end game moving the best part of my game....One thing that stands out, to me, is the necessity to make a good hit on the ball you are shooting at. By that I mean, a lot of shots will require a thin cut, and good positioning of both the OB and for sure the cue ball.
Of course this is true in all pool games, but it is an absolute given, in the end game of one pocket. when your opponent is leaving you, oft times with few options, and often 8'-9' ft away, on the end rail...you are trying your best, to bring him back, to an equally awkward position.

I'm sure we'll get to more specifics later on, and yes, the score is always an important factor..But, even more important is executing your long range safeties, without scratching or selling out, simply by making a bad hit.

This requires real focus, good hits, and good decisions. How many games have you seen lost, by one careless shot, with only a few balls on the table.
I believe the end game takes more patience, than any other part of the game, learn it well, concentrate hard, and you'll find yourself winning a lot of games you didn't think you could.

It is a more much more aggressive game now, then it was a while back, but not all games are '8 and outs'. The end game still comes up a lot, especially in tournaments...and hi $$$$ cash games. (well, maybe not too much in Viffer's match-ups...;))


Good points! And It's my favorite part of the game.haha How ya doin bud.John B.
 

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
SJDinPHX said:
Until the whole thing started going south, I had always considered my end game moving the best part of my game....One thing that stands out, to me, is the necessity to make a good hit on the ball you are shooting at. By that I mean, a lot of shots will require a thin cut, and good positioning of both the OB and for sure the cue ball.
Of course this is true in all pool games, but it is an absolute given, in the end game of one pocket. when your opponent is leaving you, oft times with few options, and often 8'-9' ft away, on the end rail...you are trying your best, to bring him back, to an equally awkward position.

I'm sure we'll get to more specifics later on, and yes, the score is always an important factor..But, even more important is executing your long range safeties, without scratching or selling out, simply by making a bad hit.

This requires real focus, good hits, and good decisions. How many games have you seen lost, by one careless shot, with only a few balls on the table.
I believe the end game takes more patience, than any other part of the game, learn it well, concentrate hard, and you'll find yourself winning a lot of games you didn't think you could.

It is a more much more aggressive game now, then it was a while back, but not all games are '8 and outs'. The end game still comes up a lot, especially in tournaments...and hi $$$$ cash games. (well, maybe not too much in Viffer's match-ups...;))

Dick, I watched the part of the second Viff/Alex match live feed and they were saying that in the first match, Viff had won most of the games that came down to an end game, I.e. just a couple or three balls left on the table and both players taking shots at them. I thought this was very interesting as well as counter-intuitive.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
petie said:
Dick, I watched the part of the second Viff/Alex match live feed and they were saying that in the first match, Viff had won most of the games that came down to an end game, I.e. just a couple or three balls left on the table and both players taking shots at them. I thought this was very interesting as well as counter-intuitive.

Petie,

Do you happen to have the SJD/Joyner match, from Grady's Champions tournament in Baton Rouge (1998)...This will illustrate what I am talking about, in end rail strategy, as several of our games went down to the last few balls. (one lasted for about 1/2 hour worth of exchanges, with one ball.)

I will be the first to admit, at that time, Cliff was in his prime, (I was in my mid-60's) and I'm quite sure, he could have easily given me a few balls for the $$$$ in a long race.

But in a race to 4, anything can happen, and if you listen to the commentary by Buddy Hall, when it got down to the last few balls, he said "I think Dick might be the favorite from here". Turned out, (lucky for me) he was right...;) I know lll and Dennis have that tape...Maybe they'll post a few end game shots.

PS.. Playing conditions were brutal, which also may have helped me, more than him...:cool:
 
Last edited:

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
SJDinPHX said:
Petie,

Do you happen to have the SJD/Joyner match, from Grady's Champions tournament in Baton Rouge (1998)...This will illustrate what I am talking about, in end rail strategy, as several of our games went down to the last few balls. (one lasted for about 1/2 hour worth of exchanges, with one ball.)

I will be the first to admit, at that time, Cliff was in his prime, (I was in my mid-60's) and I'm quite sure, he could have easily given me a few balls for the $$$$ in a long race.

But in a race to 4, anything can happen, and if you listen to the commentary by Buddy Hall, when it got down to the last few balls, he said "I think Dick might be the favorite from here". Turned out, (lucky for me) he was right...;) I know lll and Dennis have that DVD...Maybe they post a few end games..

PS.. Playing conditions were brutal, which also may have helped me, more than him...:cool:

No, I wish I did have that DVD. I'll keep an eye out for it.
 

MARK..HOU TX

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
376
Great topic Larry .. Dick ..I also want to check that out .. When I Started getting MY LEARN ON a few years ago around Rod and Senor and a few others I felt Lost ..now I'm found..somewhat :confused: .. I now embrace end game scenarios ..they bring out the best of my game.. I might be better suited to 1 ball 1 pocket :)
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,718
From
New Braunfels tx.
petie said:
Dick, I watched the part of the second Viff/Alex match live feed and they were saying that in the first match, Viff had won most of the games that came down to an end game, I.e. just a couple or three balls left on the table and both players taking shots at them. I thought this was very interesting as well as counter-intuitive.

There's something about giving big spots and getting down to the last ball or two. I played a guy years ago in San Antonio 10/6 and 9/7, so we didn't have to spot any balls. We played very high, ( for me) every time it got down to one or two balls he beat me. ( I guess because I thought I was the favorite I let up and played too loose) It got so good to him that he wanted to play one ball one pocket. As I posted in another thread we played 13 hours. I torched him. He really never had a chance and couldn't make himself quit. :)
Rod.
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
19,057
From
vero beach fl
androd said:
There's something about giving big spots and getting down to the last ball or two. I played a guy years ago in San Antonio 10/6 and 9/7, so we didn't have to spot any balls. We played very high, ( for me) every time it got down to one or two balls he beat me. ( I guess because I thought I was the favorite I let up and played too loose) It got so good to him that he wanted to play one ball one pocket. As I posted in another thread we played 13 hours. I torched him. He really never had a chance and couldn't make himself quit. :)
Rod.
rod what was different in your one ball pocket game vs the game you gave him with the spot??
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
wgcp said:
I also have that match... and I thought only philly guys squeezed that hard...

Bille,

I didn't always play that way, I used to be very aggressive...But, when your ball pocketing skills deteriorate, you have to do the best you can, in the moving dept. Maybe I didn't shoot as well as a lot of guys, but I very often, could beat them to the shot...which I then might have missed, or got out of shape, when I should have got a bunch of balls. (thankfully, not always)...Then you have to rely on your long suit, to try and win the f-ing game..!

Not a lot of "super movers" beat me to the shot, especially in the end game...Ask RA or Cooney, or Grady, Buddy Hall, or maybe Billy I.,...in case you think I'm [sic] "bragging"...:cool:

PS..As someone else once said...Bragging is only bulls**t, if it ain't true...:eek:
 
Last edited:

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,718
From
New Braunfels tx.
lll said:
rod what was different in your one ball pocket game vs the game you gave him with the spot??
Well even though he beat me every time it got to one or two in the regular game, I knew I had quite a bit the best of it. It showed up in the one ball.
Really spotting him 3 balls verses even.:D
Rod.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
androd said:
There's something about giving big spots and getting down to the last ball or two. I played a guy years ago in San Antonio 10/6 and 9/7, so we didn't have to spot any balls. We played very high, ( for me) every time it got down to one or two balls he beat me. ( I guess because I thought I was the favorite I let up and played too loose) It got so good to him that he wanted to play one ball one pocket. As I posted in another thread we played 13 hours. I torched him. He really never had a chance and couldn't make himself quit. :)
Rod.

I am thinking I may know your victim, Sir Rodney....PM please...;)
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,693
From
Dallas Tx.
SJDinPHX said:
Until the whole thing started going south, I had always considered my end game moving the best part of my game....One thing that stands out, to me, is the necessity to make a good hit on the ball you are shooting at. By that I mean, a lot of shots will require a thin cut, and good positioning of both the OB and for sure the cue ball.
Of course this is true in all pool games, but it is an absolute given, in the end game of one pocket. when your opponent is leaving you, oft times with few options, and
often 8'-9' ft away, on the end rail...you are trying your best, to bring him back, to an equally awkward position.

I'm sure we'll get to more specifics later on, and yes, the score is always an important factor..But, even more important is executing your long range safeties, without scratching or selling out, simply by making a bad hit.

This requires real focus, good hits, and good decisions. How many games have you seen lost, by one careless shot, with only a few balls on the table.
I believe the end game takes more patience, than any other part of the game, learn it well, concentrate hard, and you'll find yourself winning a lot of games you didn't think you could.

It is a more much more aggressive game now, then it was a while back, but not all games are '8 and outs'. The end game still comes up a lot, especially in tournaments...and hi $$$$ cash games. (well, maybe not too much in Viffer's match-ups...;))

Dick, your one of the most knowledgeable players not only on this site, but in the world and this post is a testament to that. If you and Freddie would put equal effort into educating as much as fueding I believe that it would benefit every one including both of you guys.

You have always been regarded by all the top players as being a great mover. Ronnie and Kelly told me that personally back in the late 60's or early 70's I can't remember exactly when it was. But I do remember that San Jose was not a stop for road hustlers that played one pocket.

When ever you get serious about shot discussions I always hold your opinion in high regard, thx for kicking off this thread on a serious note.

Dr. Billy I.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
From
chicago illinois
Shooting vs moving

Shooting vs moving

At a big tournament at St Charles, IL, I tried to make a game with Kim Davenport -- who was at the top of his game -- . Here were Kim's final offers:
He wanted a ball playing either Onepocket or Banks, but would give me the 5 ball playing 9 Ball.

Anything I say is open for confirmation. I think Kim is still with us. I also think I will give Jack Cooney a call. My good friend, Jack Cooney. I will ask him if ____ could outmove him. Grady may have an opinion also.

Beard
 

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
fred bentivegna said:
At a big tournament at St Charles, IL, I tried to make a game with Kim Davenport -- who was at the top of his game -- . Here were Kim's final offers:
He wanted a ball playing either Onepocket or Banks, but would give me the 5 ball playing 9 Ball.

Anything I say is open for confirmation. I think Kim is still with us. I also think I will give Jack Cooney a call. My good friend, Jack Cooney. I will ask him if ____ could outmove him. Grady may have an opinion also.

Beard
Fred and all......
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA[/ame]
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
I DO NOT want to crank it up again, give it a rest..!

I DO NOT want to crank it up again, give it a rest..!

Avoiding anything that could be viewed as confrontational,...but still trying to defend myself....I would just like to say, that I encourage _________ to call Jack or Grady (or RA or EK)...He might want to talk to Barbara too,...she has some very "vivid" memories of a few of our 'looooong' sessions. They were played, mostly in my mid to late 60's too, when I was NOT "at the top of my game"...

PS..So much for detente (sp) I guess...At least I'M trying.
 
Last edited:

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
SJDinPHX said:
Avoiding anything that could be viewed as confrontational,...but still trying to defend myself....I would just like to say, that I encourage _________ to call Jack or Grady (or RA or EK)...He might want to talk to Barbara too,...she has some "vivid" memories of a few of our 'looooong' sessions. They were played, mostly in my mid to late 60's too, when I was NOT "at the top of my game"...

PS..So much for detente (sp) I guess...At least I'M trying.

Dick,
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA[/ame]
 
Top