You need two and he needs one

Frank Almanza

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Take one intentional and hopefully he will too and then push the cue ball to where exactly it was pushed to in the second frame and let him shoot coast to coast with both balls frozen. By the way Frank, is that your Anniversary table. Looks beautiful. Are those 4" pockets?
Jerry, it's a Centennial table with 4.5" pockets. I like playing many other games especially 14.1.
That game is difficult to play on 4 inch pockets so I had Ernesto open them up. Although you still need to hit the pocket good to make the balls.
 

onepockethacker

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Im waiting for someone ( Billy I.) to tell me what they are going to do when I roll the cue ball right back and hook them and they are on 2 fouls... and please dont tell me its hard to do from there..
 

wincardona

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This was not a real situation but could be. I did place the balls in their position except where the cue ball wound up at after my second foul. On that second foul with a little more thought I could have kicked the cue ball a couple of inches further up to prevent my opponent from kicking it back to the original position as the Hacker suggested. While being careful not to go too far and allow him to bridge up comfortably and shoot firm to stop the cue ball.

Tom Wirth did mentioned that for those that would take a foul and leave the cue ball in place have now cut off the avenue to the safe spot because of the balls that will be on the spot. Good point.

I found it to be a high percentage to get the cue ball very tight to the long rail by coming off the short rail point of the pocket. Even if it winds up a little off the rail it still would be hard to pocket the twelve. If he shoots at the twelve and the cue ball rubs the rail on it's way to the twelve, the twelve will not go. In other words the twelve because it's froze there is only one spot to hit it to make it as opposed to if it was slightly off the rail. So now you not only have to consider your skill level but also the table conditions, the level of the table and if the rails are perfect between the side pocket. Keeping in mind that it's not a free miss because of the other ball that's on the short rail.

Even if he succeeds in pocketing the 12 ball there's a very little chance for another ball. So now I need four and he needs one, as oppose to kicking out on my first foul where I will need three and him needing one and with him having a chance to win on his shot after my kick.

Sure it's a big difference between needing three or needing four. But in this case, needing four pretty much keeps me in the game and I'm sure we've all won games being further behind than this.

I think giving him one opportunity to make a mistake on that twelve ball would be worth it the risk.
I agree with your logic Frank, imo it gives you the best chance to win the game. There are going to be times when you may end up back in the pocket on two fouls, however there are also going to be times when hour back at the table with a shot
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, whats new. I like your strategy Frank.

Dr. Bill
 

Frank Almanza

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So tell me your response now when I take an intentional and shoot the cue ball 3 inches and hook you again on the pocket facing.. your on 2 by the way..... now people might learn something
Ok, I agree about him relocating the cue ball back to the original position but you make it sound like it's a gimme to do that. It's a very touchy shot that also give him a chance to make a mistake with. Not getting there and letting me see the balls on the spot let's me out of the trap. Plus there is a chance for you to scratch. If you scratch, I now have a bank on the twelve and maybe become the favorite in the game. Had I positioned the cue ball a couple of inches further from the pocket I doubt that you would consider that shot.

But let's say that you are successful in putting the cue ball back inside the pocket, it's not an automatic win for you because from there is a two rail kick around the balls on the spot to hit the twelve. I say that most here can hit that ball at least seven out of ten and maybe more. If I can do that, now you need three and I need four. Not bad for having started from such a dire situation.
 

onepockethacker

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Ok, I agree about him relocating the cue ball back to the original position but you make it sound like it's a gimme to do that. It's a very touchy shot that also give him a chance to make a mistake with. Not getting there and letting me see the balls on the spot let's me out of the trap. Plus there is a chance for you to scratch. If you scratch, I now have a bank on the twelve and maybe become the favorite in the game. Had I positioned the cue ball a couple of inches further from the pocket I doubt that you would consider that shot.

But let's say that you are successful in putting the cue ball back inside the pocket, it's not an automatic win for you because from there is a two rail kick around the balls on the spot to hit the twelve. I say that most here can hit that ball at least seven out of ten and maybe more. If I can do that, now you need three and I need four. Not bad for having started from such a dire situation.
Seeing how you want to live in fantasy land on this one... remember Frank the 12 is FROZEN meaning you have to have the cue ball hit the 12 and then the cue ball hit the rail otherwise you lose.. If you want to bet on that 7 out of 10 you have action... by the way as Doc pointed out in an earlier WWYD you get 1 chance at the kick when your on 2.. By the way if you had gotten the cue ball farther from the pocket you are right I wouldn't consider taking the intentional seeing how you wont be able to freeze the cue ball to the rail if you try and get farther away you leave a gimme on the 12 ball and now you are playing 4 to 1...

P.S. how bad are you and Billy I. thinking these days? you guys are about to get 3 fouled in a WWYD... LOL
 

Wayne

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Frank Almanza;176221 But let's say that you are successful in putting the cue ball back inside the pocket said:
I think you should set that shot up and try the kick, it looks almost impossible with 4 balls on the spot and the 13 ball in the path. A one rail kick at the 13 might work but I don't see a 2 rail path to the 12.
 

onepockethacker

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I think you should set that shot up and try the kick, it looks almost impossible with 4 balls on the spot and the 13 ball in the path. A one rail kick at the 13 might work but I don't see a 2 rail path to the 12.
Real good point.
 

Frank Almanza

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I think you should set that shot up and try the kick, it looks almost impossible with 4 balls on the spot and the 13 ball in the path. A one rail kick at the 13 might work but I don't see a 2 rail path to the 12.
Wayne, I have set the shot up and since I have to hit it pretty firm in case I hit the twelve too full and have to drive it to another rail that makes the kick even better. Kicking just past the side pocket with center ball and no spin you will get past the balls on the spot and if you don't hit the 13 ball (which I wouldn't mind) you will hit the 12 ball. It's unlikely to go into that area without hitting one of those two balls. Of course there is a chance of scratching somewhere after satisfying the ball/rail requirements.

I'll have to test this on other tables. Maybe I have a trick table that's allowing me to be so successful.
 

Wayne

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Wayne, I have set the shot up and since I have to hit it pretty firm in case I hit the twelve too full and have to drive it to another rail that makes the kick even better. Kicking just past the side pocket with center ball and no spin you will get past the balls on the spot and if you don't hit the 13 ball (which I wouldn't mind) you will hit the 12 ball. It's unlikely to go into that area without hitting one of those two balls. Of course there is a chance of scratching somewhere after satisfying the ball/rail requirements.

I'll have to test this on other tables. Maybe I have a trick table that's allowing me to be so successful.
Where the 13 ball appears to be (directly in front of the white score keeper) it doesn't leave an angle for me to get the 2 rails. If it is further away from the pocket then it works. (that is a problem sometimes perceiving exactly where balls are in the picture).

I've never lost a game on 3 fouls but if i was shooting that kick I would be very worried.
 

JohnInNH

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May 23, 2004
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Alot of you guys are going to trap yourself in this spot... Sometimes you just have to take your medicine.. Kick into the box on the first shot and play 3 to 1... All the other choices are going to put you in a worse spot.
I agree with hacker here, it's the correct choice to make under the circumstances.

John
 

Frank Almanza

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You guys are probably right and I don't even know what I would do if presented with this situation. I just put this out as something to discuss. Not a real life situation.

I positioned the balls to make the kick to that area a touchy. Possibly hitting it too hard, maybe scratching, too soft and selling out, leaving a two rail bank on the ball that will be on the spot. a three rail bank on the twelve, a kick on the 13 ball.

I tried to get a lot of conversation on this scenario. Which it did and thanks to all that replied.

To illustrate that kicking all that distance from being where the cue ball was at is not all as easy it appears let me remind you, JohnInNH, that you had James Christopher in a very similar situation at the SS tournament in Houston.
He was corner hooked at that very same location as in my post here. You both needed one, hill/hill and the winner advances to the hot seat match. The remaining ball that was on the table in your quadrant of the table maybe between the spot and your pocket. James elected to kick the cue ball and try to get behind the remaining. The kick was a bit too hard and you won the game on your very next shot with a nice cross corner bank.

The point is that kicking the length of the table is not so routine when one is under duress.

John, you play an excellent game and have my admiration for your fine play and the calmness you showed throughout the whole tournament. Congratulations on your high finish. Hope to see you again in October.
 

beatle

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kicking for the box isnt the best imho. you have a big hole directly in line to scratch into which means you have a small window.

kick to hit
one of those balls down there. most times you will leave him safe. and if you miss you hit the window if its on the correct side.

also it is a big difference having to make three than two and the chance of that happening makes me want to risk it hitting the kick for a ball. and coming from a corner the kick is easy to hit a ball with about 5 inches of balls to use.
 
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