You need two and he needs one

Frank Almanza

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It is pretty easy to scratch trying to get in that little area.

To short you sell out owing one and leave a shot, too hard you can leave a kick or scratch.
Or even if you get to that little area you are giving up a two railer with the ball that's going on the spot. A shot that goes on many tables especially on a diamond. Or at worse give up a three rail bank on the twelve where they can also drive the cue ball uptable.
 

Frank Almanza

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On my second foul I'm coming off the short rail point and softly putting the cue ball on the long rail. With the twelve ball frozen many will consider other options other than to try to slow roll to pocket the twelve. Missing it may cause them two balls and giving you the first shot at the three balls on the spot with both of you needing two..

This is what he will be looking at after my second foul.
20160215_103336.jpg
 
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wincardona

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On my second foul I'm coming off the short rail point and softly putting the cue ball on the long rail. With the twelve ball frozen many will consider other options other than to try to slow roll to pocket the twelve. Missing it may cause them two ball and giving you the first shot at the three balls on the spot with both of you needing two..

This is what he will be looking at after my second foul.
View attachment 14087
I like your thinking on this one Frank, especially if you can freeze the cue ball like in your picture.

Dr. Bill
 

onepockethacker

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On my second foul I'm coming off the short rail point and softly putting the cue ball on the long rail. With the twelve ball frozen many will consider other options other than to try to slow roll to pocket the twelve. Missing it may cause them two balls and giving you the first shot at the three balls on the spot with both of you needing two..

This is what he will be looking at after my second foul.
View attachment 14087
WOW you froze the cue ball and all... I guess the only thing I can do is roll the cue ball into the pocket facing again and put you right back where you started.. HOOKED and now on 2!! GOOD LUCK This is the problem with your shot and thought process Frank.. If you dont get the cue ball farther than you did on the pic your opponent will just shoot the cue ball softly off the facing and it will sit against the other facing again.. If you try and get the cue ball farther from the pocket on your foul there is a lot less chance of freezing it and then the shot is useless.. So from where you left it if I hook you you lose.
 
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Cory in dc

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Alot of you guys are going to trap yourself in this spot... Sometimes you just have to take your medicine.. Kick into the box on the first shot and play 3 to 1... All the other choices are going to put you in a worse spot.
I'm with Hacker here. It's already set up for what I call a reference shot. Hit the cue ball to just short of the tip on the side pocket with pocket speed and it should go straight into his hole on most tables. Even if I haven't shot that reference shot (something I should do to learn a table, but I don't in practice because I'm lazy), after an hour of playing I should have a pretty good feel for how the table banks.

Given that I just need to execute a slightly more acute angle version of the reference shot, I can just move the contact point 1/2 diamond to the right (towards the headrail) and be confident that I won't scratch and won't sell out anything worse than the 2-railer on the ball I spot. If he makes the 2-railer, he deserves to win. But if he doesn't then I have some room to grind.

The way I would play the kick, I just might graze the right side of the 12, in which case I don't even have to spot a ball and I probably leave only an awkward 1-railer and/or an awkward 3-railer.

Kick!

Cory
 

Billy Jackets

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I went down and shot it 10 times, I haven't played 10 hours in 6 months and half that or more was eating or talking.
All 10 trys I aimed to go just past the 12 on the long rail and with speed to go to the bottom rail.
1. Short , froze on 12 ball full no shot.
2.Touched edge of 12 and rolled down to bottom rail no shot.
3.Missed 12 by 2 inches ball stayed near rail, no shot.
4.Hit 12 too full but it banked away to bottom rail , no shot. {Luck}
5. Shot too soft , ball rolled off and sold out straight in on 12. I lose.
6.Hit 12 thin and rolled to near bottom rail, no shot.
7.Hit just below 12 and stayed there. no shot.
8.Hit 12 ball thin and went near bottom rail. No shot
9. Shot just short of touching 12 ball full , almost frozen on it , no shot.
10. Hit 12 too full and banked it toward bottom rail, this time it was a little short of lucky safe and left a tough cut , that I made, sold out.
When I first started I thought if I hit the 12 I would scratch pretty often, that didn't happen.
I think realistically if I had been playing frequently and been warmed up when I went down {I didn't shoot any warm up shots , probably should have though}
that I could take the foul 90% or more often successfully, and a couple out of ten I would just skim the 12.
So in my case I think shooting the kick is more to my advantage, but!, I have practiced kicking a lot and have a lot of confidence in it.
People that don't have that ability are probably better off shooting something else.
Most of my shots did sell out the kick on the 9 on the bottom rail, and some people hit that great every time .
But they are going to have to show me at least once.
I took 5 fouls , Lost 2 games for sure. and left that kick on the nine ball 5 times counting the 2 games I lost anyway.
This is a tough place to be, I would not be unhappy if this was the outcome, at my level.
 
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Cory in dc

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I went down and shot it 10 time I haven't played 10 hours in 6 months and half that or more was eating or talking.
All 10 trys I aimed to go just past the 12 on the long rail and with go to the bottom rail speed.
1. Short , froze on 12 ball full no shot.
2.Touched edge of 12 and rolled down to bottom rail no shot.
3.Missed 12 by 2 inches ball stayed near rail, no shot.
4.Hit 12 too full but it banked away to bottom rail , no shot. {Luck}
5. Shot too soft , ball rolled off and sold out straight in on 12. I lose.
6.Hit 12 thin and rolled to near bottom rail, no shot.
7.Hit just below 12 and stayed there. no shot.
8.Hit 12 ball thin and went near bottom rail. No shot
9. Shot just short of touching 12 ball full , almost frozen on it , no shot.
10. Hit 12 too full and banked it toward bottom rail, this time it was a little short of lucky safe and left a tough cut , that I made, sold out.
That's pretty damn good odds on the kick shot given where you're cueball is located! Every time you hit the 12 at on the lower side, you left no shot.

QED.
 

Billy Jackets

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That's pretty damn good odds on the kick shot given where you're cueball is located! Every time you hit the 12 at on the lower side, you left no shot.

QED.
Thank You!
They might have also been able to 1 rail the 12 back into the pocket on some of the shots, but it never went out far enough to where there was any rail to be hit without the ball reversing back in.
But for people who are not champions, that's a pretty tough shot.
If I were playing someone even , I would not expect them to make it, if I were playing a much better player , this is a game I am supposed to lose anyway.
The spot should come into play in other games to make the game fair.
 
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Frank Almanza

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Thank You!
They might have also been able to 1 rail the 12 back into the pocket on some of the shots, but it never went out far enough to where there was any rail to be hit without the ball reversing back in.
But for people who are not champions, that's a pretty tough shot.
If I were playing someone even , I would not expect them to make it, if I were playing a much better player , this is a game I am supposed to lose anyway.
The spot should come into play in other games to make the game fair.
Thank you for taking the time to do this and reporting your results. There's always multiple ways on these wwyd's and putting them up is a way to see into other peoples minds. Personally I enjoyed all the thoughts that were put up here.
I, myself, usually test my ideas before posting.
 

unoperro

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Thank you for taking the time to do this and reporting your results. There's always multiple ways on these wwyd's and putting them up is a way to see into other peoples minds. Personally I enjoyed all the thoughts that were put up here.
I, myself, usually test my ideas before posting.
I was thinking you had Placed those balls perfectly to make the situation harder. Ball on longrail made it real hard to 2 rail into ball on end rail and vice versa.

A 5 rail kick hit perfect dies against the ball on end rail.But that isnt apt to occur when you need it!
 

baby huey

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Take one intentional and hopefully he will too and then push the cue ball to where exactly it was pushed to in the second frame and let him shoot coast to coast with both balls frozen. By the way Frank, is that your Anniversary table. Looks beautiful. Are those 4" pockets?
 

Billy Jackets

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Thank you for taking the time to do this and reporting your results. There's always multiple ways on these wwyd's and putting them up is a way to see into other peoples minds. Personally I enjoyed all the thoughts that were put up here.
I, myself, usually test my ideas before posting.
Thank you Frank, for this scenario!
This was the first time I ever actually worked on a shot, it was very informative!
As I said, I thought that hitting the 12 anywhere near the center facing toward the rail , would probably scratch.
I started thinking some more after my first post and I went down and just shot the cue ball at the angle it takes after the first rail into the 12 to see if it actually was a high % scratch and I had gotten lucky, with only 10 shots.
At any where near pocket speed, I could not get the ball to scratch even trying!
It either kept hitting the ball extremely thin , or it hit a little fat, and double kissed out,and down, toward the bottom rail.
What I think is happening is that at slow speed , the ball does not compress the cushion much and comes back to the cueball quickly, stopping any scratch.
I did make it scratch by shooting about 2 diamonds speed too hard!
That must allow the object ball to get out of the way enough!
I hope a better player will try the same test, and see if they come up with the same results /conclusion.
I will never give my opinion again, without actually trying it first!
I learned, what I think, is a very important concept, about frozen balls and speed, that I might never have thought of, otherwise.
 

lll

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thanks frank for the wwyd
and to billy for taking the time to give us some real life results
 

wincardona

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You like it from where he left the cue ball?
Yes, i'll take my chances from where he left the cue ball, but i'm taking the intentional by tapping the cue ball while it's in the pocket to force my opponent to take one back, for sure.:sorry

Dr. Bill
 

onepockethacker

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Yes, i'll take my chances from where he left the cue ball, but i'm taking the intentional by tapping the cue ball while it's in the pocket to force my opponent to take one back, for sure.:sorry

Dr. Bill
and you will come out on the losing end..:frus
 

onepockethacker

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Yes, i'll take my chances from where he left the cue ball, but i'm taking the intentional by tapping the cue ball while it's in the pocket to force my opponent to take one back, for sure.:sorry

Dr. Bill
Lets pick up the thinking ahead part of the game a little guys... so you dont end up trapping yourselves as usual
 

onepockethacker

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Yes, i'll take my chances from where he left the cue ball, but i'm taking the intentional by tapping the cue ball while it's in the pocket to force my opponent to take one back, for sure.:sorry

Dr. Bill
So tell me your response now when I take an intentional and shoot the cue ball 3 inches and hook you again on the pocket facing.. your on 2 by the way..... now people might learn something
 

onepockethacker

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Everyone thinks its an automatic move to take a foul when you are tittie hooked like this however there is the rare occasion when the balls are laying like this when taking the touch scratch will put you in a far worse predicament... If you are going to learn anything from this site you better learn this.. learn to think farther ahead then the shot you are facing to see what your opponents reply will be.. unbelievable
 

Frank Almanza

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I was thinking you had Placed those balls perfectly to make the situation harder. Ball on longrail made it real hard to 2 rail into ball on end rail and vice versa.

A 5 rail kick hit perfect dies against the ball on end rail.But that isnt apt to occur when you need it!
This was not a real situation but could be. I did place the balls in their position except where the cue ball wound up at after my second foul. On that second foul with a little more thought I could have kicked the cue ball a couple of inches further up to prevent my opponent from kicking it back to the original position as the Hacker suggested. While being careful not to go too far and allow him to bridge up comfortably and shoot firm to stop the cue ball.

Tom Wirth did mentioned that for those that would take a foul and leave the cue ball in place have now cut off the avenue to the safe spot because of the balls that will be on the spot. Good point.

I found it to be a high percentage to get the cue ball very tight to the long rail by coming off the short rail point of the pocket. Even if it winds up a little off the rail it still would be hard to pocket the twelve. If he shoots at the twelve and the cue ball rubs the rail on it's way to the twelve, the twelve will not go. In other words the twelve because it's froze there is only one spot to hit it to make it as opposed to if it was slightly off the rail. So now you not only have to consider your skill level but also the table conditions, the level of the table and if the rails are perfect between the side pocket. Keeping in mind that it's not a free miss because of the other ball that's on the short rail.

Even if he succeeds in pocketing the 12 ball there's a very little chance for another ball. So now I need four and he needs one, as oppose to kicking out on my first foul where I will need three and him needing one and with him having a chance to win on his shot after my kick.

Sure it's a big difference between needing three or needing four. But in this case, needing four pretty much keeps me in the game and I'm sure we've all won games being further behind than this.

I think giving him one opportunity to make a mistake on that twelve ball would be worth it the risk.
 
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