You Make The Call: Breit vs. Osborne

[Cowboy Dennis]

Still game 1 after 7,257 shots. Jack is up 4-2 and Bob just left him here. They have some discussion about the jammed-up balls. How would you rule?

P.S. Dear "copy & pasters", anybody can quote rules, give your damn opinion .

P.Ps. Co-commentator Billy I. said that "both balls are wedged past the shelf in the corner pocket, I believe that they are down". Co-commentator Buddy Hall agreed.

Here's the layout before Bob shot:



And after:

 

[lll]

not knowing or looking up the rule of where the table ends and the pocket starts
my first opinion was if they are not down they are not down and dont get spotted
buddy and billy seem to imply that the pocket starts where the shelf ends

both the 10 and 13 seem to have part of the ball touching the shelf(cant tell if the base is touching or not)

this is a similar concept i think to when you have ball in hand below the head string after a scratch does the bottom of an object ball past the head string count as a ball you can shoot at or does the whole ball have to be in front of the headstring???
not meant to be a hijack
maybe we can solve 2 issues with one thread

 

[petie]

IMO the balls have left the playing surface. They both should be spotted. I've seen this happen only a couple of times in 50 years or so.

In straight pool and every other pool game I know, an object ball must be half over the head string to be playable when you are shooting from the kitchen. That is the center of the ball must be over the line. That having been said, wherever I've played one pocket, the rule is that the OB must be all the way over the line. I.e. the back of the ball must clear the line. You ask your oponent about close balls before you shoot.

 

[John Brumback]

I think...

I think...

There's this ole rule somwhere that says,pool balls must remain on the playing surface.This must be a joke,Right? If the balls are hanging In mid air...that could be called not on the playing surface.Right? Come on now.
Spot the dam balls..hurry up too.Quit stalling around.You know the rules.
John B.

All though.. I have seen them jam,while still being on the playing surface.then the only ? Is, are they?

 

[vapros]

I have a DVD of a match - I think Steve Cook may have been one of the players - in which the cueball and an object ball became jammed up in the same way. Grady was the tournament director, and he came and took the object ball in his hand and pressed it into the rubber, freeing up the cueball, which then fell into the pocket. He ruled it a scratch, and if I remember correctly, the object ball and the penalty ball were both spotted. This does not make anything official, but it's the only ruling I have seen. Seemed like the only way to go, so that's what I would do.

By the way, isn't this guy Bob Ogburn?

 

[Jimmy B]

I have a DVD of a match - I think Steve Cook may have been one of the players - in which the cueball and an object ball became jammed up in the same way. Grady was the tournament director, and he came and took the object ball in his hand and pressed it into the rubber, freeing up the cueball, which then fell into the pocket. He ruled it a scratch, and if I remember correctly, the object ball and the penalty ball were both spotted. This does not make anything official, but it's the only ruling I have seen. Seemed like the only way to go, so that's what I would do.

By the way, isn't this guy Bob Ogburn?

Yes it is Vapros. I remember watching that match. I knew a very good player named Osbourne or Osborne but that is definetly Ogburn who had the horrible experience in SC when Burton took his money blasting and shitting out as well as running out from everywhere, then the trunk of his car was broken into and all his belonging, luggage, etc was stolen and scattered along the roadside and then to top it off, some civil servants doing some scouting for a presidental apperance, had Bob thrown in jail to top it off.

Those two balls were definetly lodged tight in there. They were hit hard and just wedged in there and stopped suddenly. They discussed it for a minute, did not ask for a ruling or anything, just kept playing it out. The balls were hit two or three times and finally another ball comes to rest against them and they shot 30 times or so before Bob hits them again to pocket the two balls and spot them up. That game took forever. Longer than most any of Scott Frosts matches and Red won it. I do not know what should have happened but to me they should have been called in the pocket and spotted right away

 

[androd]

I can't believe someone didn't shot one of them in the pocket.
If you hit one instead of both it usually goes in.
Rod.

 

[Rod]

They have to be on the table surface and it appears neither one of them are. Spot them both and resume play. I think the ruling is over the slate edge. If you can lift either ball and the other falls they are considered in the pocket.

Rod

 

[fred bentivegna]

Tommy the Sailor Kramer

Tommy the Sailor Kramer

I was playing Tommy the Sailor in the tourn room in Bensingers. A situation came up just like this except one of the two balls hanging over the edge was the cueball! It was Tommy's shot and he couldnt figure out what to do. I told him to just shoot it into the pocket and take the scratch. He wouldnt do that, so I made him do something extraordinary. The Gold Crown in the tourn room, table 24, didnt have side panels (for whatever reason). So Tommy had to get down on the floor and shoot up through the back of the pocket to drive the cue ball out of the pocket! The whole joint was on the floor laughing, with Tommy grumbling and cursing the whole time. I dont even remember what happened after the cue ball got launched back onto the table. Didnt matter. It wasnt important. All the fun came out of seeing Tommy shooting from down on the floor. Him being about half-drunk didnt hurt the comedic aspect of the scene either.

Beard

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I was playing Tommy the Sailor in the tourn room in Bensingers. A situation came up just like this except one of the two balls hanging over the edge was the cueball! It was Tommy's shot and he couldnt figure out what to do. I told him to just shoot it into the pocket and take the scratch. He wouldnt do that, so I made him do something extraordinary. The Gold Crown in the tourn room, table 24, didnt have side panels (for whatever reason). So Tommy had to get down on the floor and shoot up through the back of the pocket to drive the cue ball out of the pocket! The whole joint was on the floor laughing, with Tommy grumbling and cursing the whole time. I dont even remember what happened after the cue ball got launched back onto the table. Didnt matter. It wasnt important. All the fun came out of seeing Tommy shooting from down on the floor. Him being about half-drunk didnt hurt the comedic aspect of the scene either.

Beard

I think I remember a player doing that in a tourney in the last several years. He shot up through the hole in the bottom of the plastic pocket. It may have been Corey Deuel.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I can't believe someone didn't shot one of them in the pocket.
If you hit one instead of both it usually goes in.
Rod.

I'm guessing that with a 4-2 lead Jack had no motive to send two balls to the foot of the table (spot).

Dennis

 

[Miller]

i don't know the answer, but after tinkering around on a diamond for about 10 minutes, it's an even chance to make the eight (jacked up about 78 degrees) and both stripes, leaving opponent in a real tough spot

 

[blackeee]

Still game 1 after 7,257 shots. Jack is up 4-2 and Bob just left him here. They have some discussion about the jammed-up balls. How would you rule?

P.S. Dear "copy & pasters", anybody can quote rules, give your damn opinion .

P.Ps. Co-commentator Billy I. said that "both balls are wedged past the shelf in the corner pocket, I believe that they are down". Co-commentator Buddy Hall agreed.

Here's the layout before Bob shot:

View attachment 3599

And after:

View attachment 3596

View attachment 3597

View attachment 3598

I say they are down.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I also thought both balls should've been spotted but after a few seconds of discussion they were left there and Jack played a safety. Bob didn't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[lll]

I also thought both balls should've been spotted but after a few seconds of discussion they were left there and Jack played a safety. Bob didn't seem to have a problem with it.

its hard to beleive they never called a referee or umpire.
WHAT IS THE CORRECT CALL IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO US?????

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

its hard to beleive they never called a referee or umpire.
WHAT IS THE CORRECT CALL IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO US?????

Larry,

If Jack was happy with the layout and Bob didn't dispute it there would be no need to call a ref.

Clearly the balls should have been considered in the pocket and both of them spotted up but if both guys were happy with the situation who's gonna complain?

Dennis

 

[vapros]

Clearly the balls should have been considered in the pocket and both of them spotted up but if both guys were happy with the situation who's gonna complain?

Dennis

A guy with a big bet on the rail, that's who. This brings up a question: Is a rail bettor ever entitled to have a voice in a situation like this?

 

[Frank Almanza]

Larry,

If Jack was happy with the layout and Bob didn't dispute it there would be no need to call a ref.

Clearly the balls should have been considered in the pocket and both of them spotted up but if both guys were happy with the situation who's gonna complain?

Dennis

You're absolutely correct Dennis, they both knew that both balls should have been spotted but each one felt that at some time later it would benefit them when they are spotted. They preferred to wait.

 

[Frank Almanza]

Clearly the balls should have been considered in the pocket and both of them spotted up but if both guys were happy with the situation who's gonna complain?

Dennis

A guy with a big bet on the rail, that's who. This brings up a question: Is a rail bettor ever entitled to have a voice in a situation like this?

I'll answer for Dennis. No! At least not without consequences.

 

[lll]

A guy with a big bet on the rail, that's who. This brings up a question: Is a rail bettor ever entitled to have a voice in a situation like this?

hard to say it would be an impartial opinion