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Tom Wirth

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Tom; Why do YOU think going 4 cushions is the wrong choice here?

I gave my reasons and opinions, just curious what yours are!
Bill, thank you for asking. It is a good question. My answer is pretty simple. First you must keep in mind that you are playing on a pool table not a 3 cushion table which plays much faster allowing for a smoother more effortless stroke. The four rail shot also brings into play both side pockets which is unnecessary when playing more directly between the eight and five. With your expertise with moving the cue ball multiple rails the four rail option may play better. But for most pool players the less the cue ball is moving the better the percentages work.

I understand your point in that the angle of approach onto the eight and five work far better than this two rail angle. Speed control is critical and should you hit the eight on the way up, you are dead in your tracks. That is one reason I like the cross over bank first. This gives me a very direct, controllable path to those two balls and the win.
 

mr3cushion

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I didn't advocate playing the 4 rail position, just for the EXACT reasons you've just stated! the speed of the table, IMO, has nothing to do with my choice! You adjust your stroke to the speed of the table! There is NO good angle to approach the 5 and 8! Frankly, I'm surprised Bruce went for this trap diagram, with His 3C background!

The position you've diagrammed, to me. looks pretty close to a kiss, when banking the ball and trying to come off the short cushion at a 90 degree angle with the correct speed. And using a little LH English you may run into the ball directly or going to the cushion then the ball.

This is most likely how I would play the sequence, if I do or don't make the bank. If I don't make the bank, my opponent has to get the ball out from being on the cushion, if I played it correctly.

View attachment 11903
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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Speed control is critical and should you hit the eight on the way up, you are dead in your tracks. That is one reason I like the cross over bank first. This gives me a very direct, controllable path to those two balls and the win.
Tom, in supporting the camp where myself and Billy I. (and many others) have our hammocks hanging between blossoming trees on this lovely spring morning..:)...

I must point out that that speed control that you mention here, is just as critical, and has a much smaller area to attain, when playing for your crossover bank = end up an inch too low, and you can't shoot the crossover bank - end up an inch or two too high, and you can't shoot it either...that's why I think that crossover bank choice is not the best choice here...and this is coming from a banker - I love banking balls, and banking is one of the strongest parts of my game.

- Ghost
 
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crabbcatjohn

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My thinking

My thinking

This comes up often and i've shot it both ways. Now i go for the bank every time. Getting shape on the 5 or 8 isn't as easy as it looks with the three close to the rail and the results can be real bad. If you hit it bad you either scratch... get a very tough close quarters angle and sell out. Or even worse get hooked on the one and the 5-8. With the bank you are a big favorite to make it or hang it and there are lots of ways off the bank to get shapes for a shot on the 8 ball for either a bank or even getting behind it. I've just had too many bad things happen trying to get exact shape on those two up that close by the side.
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom, in supporting the camp where myself and Billy I. have our hammocks hanging between blossoming trees on this lovely spring morning..:)...

I must point out that that speed control that you mention here, is just as critical, and has a much smaller area to attain, when playing for your crossover bank = end up an inch too low, and you can't shoot the crossover bank - end up an inch or two too high, and you can't shoot it either...that's why I think that crossover bank choice is not the best choice here...and this is coming from a banker - I love banking balls, and banking is one of the strongest parts of my game.

- Ghost
Ghost, I must disagree with your analysis regarding the window for speed control for the bank and for the follow-up shot for position on the five and eight. It is my contention that I have ample room for the cross over bank as long as I am assured to get high enough. I must consider' is it better to roll too far or is it better to come too short. Here rolling too far gives me margin for error. The same is true for the position on the five and eight. Rolling a bit too high still gives me a good shot at the five ball.

As far as the gap between the side rail and the eight ball this is relatively easy to navigate with the use of a touch of english if necessary, All I am interested in is keeping the cue ball on a path parallel to the side cushion.

Ghost, I'm not saying this shot is necessarily the better choice for all players. Your skill at controlling the cue ball allows for more flexibility than it does for others.

My point in this thread is to demonstrate the proper way to go about securing position on the eight and five by use of the cross over bank.

Tom

I'm glad you are enjoying nice spring weather. It's always summertime here in south Florida but I am willing to sacrifice the seasons to avoid the cold winters up north.
 
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Mkbtank

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wwyd

You are right Tom in that I am waffling quite a bit here lol. What I do know is that it doesn't matter, as this is not an actual game and I have no money on the light (like I will later today 👍). But this IS a fantastic opportunity to discuss and learn. I, for one, was not thinking of playing shape for the crossover had I banked the one next. I don't usually play for that shot when a ball is past the first diamond. Just doesn't occur to me. I love that idea as I would feel good about my ability to get behind 5,8. Regardless, it's not this specific layout but this CONCEPT that you have just added to my arsenal. So Thanks Tom for this WWYD.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Tom

I'm glad you are enjoying nice spring weather. It's always summertime here in south Florida but I am willing to sacrifice the seasons to avoid the cold winters up north.
Re. that...I'll say that from Nov. - March, I definitely am jealous of you guys living down there amongst the orange groves.


Back to the shot situation, and changing it up a little...

Let me give my thinking if the score situation were a little different...

In your scenario I am shooting at the 3ball while down in the score 4 to 5...if that score were reversed, and I was ahead 5 to 4, then I would play for the cross-corner bank next, with the intent of cinching getting on the hill.

- Ghost
 

Tom Wirth

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Re. that...I'll say that from Nov. - March, I definitely am jealous of you guys living down there amongst the orange groves.


Back to the shot situation, and changing it up a little...

Let me give my thinking if the score situation were a little different...

In your scenario I am shooting at the 3ball while down in the score 4 to 5...if that score were reversed, and I was ahead 5 to 4, then I would play for the cross-corner bank next, with the intent of cinching getting on the hill.

- Ghost
Getting on the hill is a big step to winning the game. I can't disagree with your thinking here.

Back to the weather. I'm originally from Md. and anyone from that area knows how quickly Spring turns to Summer and Fall turns to Winter. Consequently, I'm not missing much. Still, those few weeks are absolutely beautiful.

Tom
 

wincardona

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Experience is the best teacher.

Experience is the best teacher.

I took this layout to the table and tested all the options that were discussed, I feel that all options are viable but one stands out as being the best choice and i'll explain why I believe what I believe.:)

Playing Billy Smiths option on going four cushions for shape is a strong way to play for the win, however, you need to hit above the side pocket with whitey when going into the second rail. This will be problematic for many players, plus the speed is 'somewhat' problematic as well, but none the less a very viable option for some.

Playing for the cross corner bank on the 1ball is also a viable option, however, the angle you're playing for to attain the correct angle to finish your run is daunting in the respect that you must draw the cue ball up the side rail for shape and may lose control of the 1ball if missed. I understand that it doesn't appear to be that much of a deterrent but imo enough it there's a better option available. Also the target area for position for the 1ball bank isn't all that big, not small, but demanding.

Playing one rail position for the 5ball and 8ball on the computer screen looked natural to me, until I went to the table to feel the angle, it wasn't. I believed when looking at the screen all that was needed was a center axis right spin to take you to the rail short of the side pocket, not true. If that were the case then this option would be arguably the best option. Like Billy Smith alluded to the scratch in the side is there and enough of a deterrent to look elsewhere, which I have.

I then examined the cross over bank option that Tom liked and concluded through experimenting that his choice would be my choice if I were the shooter. I'll explain my reasoning to why I believe what I believe.

First the simpleness of the execution of the shot to arrive to a fairly large target area for shape is natural in terms of accuracy and speed and direction. Secondly, the angle you're left with is one that will allow you to go one cushion off the bottom rail straight up table for position for the 5 and 8ball, all that is needed is a half tip of inside english and roll the 1ball in, position is natural. Plus unlike the other cross corner option that I alluded to earlier, if missed you will never lose control of the missed 1ball. One last point I would like to bring up with this option is, in the event that the 1ball bank is missed it could very easily end up in or near the pocket, plus the cue ball could very easily end up behind the 5ball and 8ball utilizing them as blockers. Just thought that that would be interesting enough to incorporate into your way of thinking.

To me this option feels to be the most natural of all the other options in terms of completing your run, you're not at risk with the cue ball like you are with the other options, and you're not jeopardizing losing control of the situation through out your entire run like you may be with other options.

Thanks Tom I learned quite a bit with your way of thinking in this type of situation.

I would like to end with saying that there were great points brought up with all the options that were discussed, and imo this was a very mind opening discussion.

Dr. Bill
 
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Cory in dc

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You are right Tom in that I am waffling quite a bit here lol. What I do know is that it doesn't matter, as this is not an actual game and I have no money on the light (like I will later today 👍). But this IS a fantastic opportunity to discuss and learn. I, for one, was not thinking of playing shape for the crossover had I banked the one next. I don't usually play for that shot when a ball is past the first diamond. Just doesn't occur to me. I love that idea as I would feel good about my ability to get behind 5,8. Regardless, it's not this specific layout but this CONCEPT that you have just added to my arsenal. So Thanks Tom for this WWYD.
Me too, good stuff here!
 

LSJohn

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Those 2 balls near the hole are crucial. Because it provides my opponent with a great safe opportunity by bringing down a ball and leaving me jacked up on the other.
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, but it's a point to consider. The problem for me is that I think I'm at least as likely to make the cross bank on the 1 as I am to get good offensive position on the 5 or 8, and if I try, but fail, I may have blocked myself on the 1.
 

mr3cushion

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I took this layout to the table and tested all the options that were discussed, I feel that all options are viable but one stands out as being the best choice and i'll explain why I believe what I believe.:)

Playing Billy Smiths option on going four cushions for shape is a strong way to play for the win, however, you need to hit above the side pocket with whitey when going into the second rail. This will be problematic for many players, plus the speed is 'somewhat' problematic as well, but none the less a very viable option for some.

Playing for the cross corner bank on the 1ball is also a viable option, however, the angle you're playing for to attain the correct angle to finish your run is daunting in the respect that you must draw the cue ball up the side rail for shape and may lose control of the 1ball if missed. I understand that it doesn't appear to be that much of a deterrent but imo enough it there's a better option available. Also the target area for position for the 1ball bank isn't all that big, not small, but demanding.

Playing one rail position for the 5ball and 8ball on the computer screen looked natural to me, until I went to the table to feel the angle, it wasn't. I believed when looking at the screen all that was needed was a center axis right spin to take you to the rail short of the side pocket, not true. If that were the case then this option would be arguably the best option. Like Billy Smith alluded to the scratch in the side is there and enough of a deterrent to look elsewhere, which I have.

I then examined the cross over bank option that Tom liked and concluded through experimenting that his choice would be my choice if I were the shooter. I'll explain my reasoning to why I believe what I believe.

First the simpleness of the execution of the shot to arrive to a fairly large target area for shape is natural in terms of accuracy and speed and direction. Secondly, the angle you're left with is one that will allow you to go one cushion off the bottom rail straight up table for position for the 5 and 8ball, all that is needed is a half tip of inside english and roll the 1ball in, position is natural. Plus unlike the other cross corner option that I alluded to earlier, if missed you will never lose control of the missed 1ball. One last point I would like to bring up with this option is, in the event that the 1ball bank is missed it could very easily end up in or near the pocket, plus the cue ball could very easily end up behind the 5ball and 8ball utilizing them as blockers. Just thought that that would be interesting enough to incorporate into your way of thinking.

To me this option feels to be the most natural of all the other options in terms of completing your run, you're not at risk with the cue ball like you are with the other options, and you're not jeopardizing losing control of the situation through out your entire run like you may be with other options.

Thanks Tom I learned quite a bit with your way of thinking in this type of situation.

I would like to end with saying that there were great points brought up with all the options that were discussed, and imo this was a very mind opening discussion.

Dr. Bill
Billy; I was NEVER in favour of going 4 cushions!

Here's MY very first post in this thread!

I've been playing 3C on a 5x10 GC pool table now for about 3 months. IMHO, trying to get the, 'Correct angle' on the 5 & 8 are going to be extremely difficult!

#1. You have to get pass the side pocket for your 2nd rail, if you don't, you may scratch.

#2. Even going pass the side pocket, now the angle is wrong coming off the 3rd rail to get to the 4th.

#3. The target area your trying to get to on the 4th cushion, and stay there is really small. You have to land on the rail in order to play position for the 8!

#4. If you do even get the angle to start to head towards the 5 & 8, you may scratch in the other side pocket.

I were to even try to play for the 5 & 8, it would be ONE cushion to the left, trying to get behind the 8 NOT the 5.

All in all, I would play for the bank, if I make it, (and try and leave the CB on the side cushion) then roll up on the out side ball up in the corner, or even make it and leave him on that other ball. If you don't make the 1 ball now He's close to the rail trying to get the ball out!

Here's MY last post:

I didn't advocate playing the 4 rail position, just for the EXACT reasons you've just stated! the speed of the table, IMO, has nothing to do with my choice! You adjust your stroke to the speed of the table! There is NO good angle to approach the 5 and 8! Frankly, I'm surprised Bruce went for this trap diagram, with His 3C background!

The position you've diagrammed, to me. looks pretty close to a kiss, when banking the ball and trying to come off the short cushion at a 90 degree angle with the correct speed. And using a little LH English you may run into the ball directly or going to the cushion then the ball.

This is most likely how I would play the sequence, if I do or don't make the bank. If I don't make the bank, my opponent has to get the ball out from being on the cushion, if I played it correctly.


View attachment 11904

__________________
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://mr3cushion.com

"Good Shooting and Good Billiards"
 
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Mkbtank

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wwyd

I swear I am not making this up!!! I just returned from matching up. Gave a guy 12-6 and the breaks for 20 a game. (Yes, he is not good, but he's been around the game a long time). It was the last game and if I win I am up 100. I need 3 and THIS I the layout that I find myself in!!!! 😱
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428189279.630276.jpg
 

crabbcatjohn

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Comes up all the time Mitch. But where the balls are at here in this layout i hope you went for the 2 up table...lol
I just had a nice session with Buddy today but this didn't come up...lol But there were a few shots that did that i wish i would have took pics of. Maybe next time.
 

Mkbtank

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wwyd

Comes up all the time Mitch. But where the balls are at here in this layout i hope you went for the 2 up table...lol

I just had a nice session with Buddy today but this didn't come up...lol But there were a few shots that did that i wish i would have took pics of. Maybe next time.

Really? I thought it was incredibly coincidental that 4 balls were in the same spots as a pic from just this am. Maybe I'm crazy lol (yes).

I did play to get on the 2 balls uptable and did get there, and did get the cheese :).
 

crabbcatjohn

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Really? I thought it was incredibly coincidental that 4 balls were in the same spots as a pic from just this am. Maybe I'm crazy lol (yes).

I did play to get on the 2 balls uptable and did get there, and did get the cheese :).
Not even close. Totally different camera angle...
 

wincardona

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Billy; I was NEVER in favour of going 4 cushions!

Here's MY very first post in this thread!

I've been playing 3C on a 5x10 GC pool table now for about 3 months. IMHO, trying to get the, 'Correct angle' on the 5 & 8 are going to be extremely difficult!

#1. You have to get pass the side pocket for your 2nd rail, if you don't, you may scratch.

#2. Even going pass the side pocket, now the angle is wrong coming off the 3rd rail to get to the 4th.

#3. The target area your trying to get to on the 4th cushion, and stay there is really small. You have to land on the rail in order to play position for the 8!

#4. If you do even get the angle to start to head towards the 5 & 8, you may scratch in the other side pocket.

I were to even try to play for the 5 & 8, it would be ONE cushion to the left, trying to get behind the 8 NOT the 5.

All in all, I would play for the bank, if I make it, (and try and leave the CB on the side cushion) then roll up on the out side ball up in the corner, or even make it and leave him on that other ball. If you don't make the 1 ball now He's close to the rail trying to get the ball out!

Here's MY last post:

I didn't advocate playing the 4 rail position, just for the EXACT reasons you've just stated! the speed of the table, IMO, has nothing to do with my choice! You adjust your stroke to the speed of the table! There is NO good angle to approach the 5 and 8! Frankly, I'm surprised Bruce went for this trap diagram, with His 3C background!

The position you've diagrammed, to me. looks pretty close to a kiss, when banking the ball and trying to come off the short cushion at a 90 degree angle with the correct speed. And using a little LH English you may run into the ball directly or going to the cushion then the ball.

This is most likely how I would play the sequence, if I do or don't make the bank. If I don't make the bank, my opponent has to get the ball out from being on the cushion, if I played it correctly.


View attachment 11904

__________________
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://mr3cushion.com

"Good Shooting and Good Billiards"
My bad, I believed for some reason that you liked going our cushions for shape on the 5ball, it's actually attainable, at least on my Diamond table. That's why I said that the option was a strong option in getting out.

Allow me to comment on your choice of options with playing for two balls and playing safe off the 1ball bank. I strongly oppose your thinking here you have an excellent opportunity to win the game with little to no risk by choosing several of the other options that were discussed. I think you went too conservative on us, you need to come off the lemon you can stand the heat.:D

Dr. Bill
 

darmoose

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My bad, I believed for some reason that you liked going our cushions for shape on the 5ball, it's actually attainable, at least on my Diamond table. That's why I said that the option was a strong option in getting out.

Allow me to comment on your choice of options with playing for two balls and playing safe off the 1ball bank. I strongly oppose your thinking here you have an excellent opportunity to win the game with little to no risk by choosing several of the other options that were discussed. I think you went too conservative on us, you need to come off the lemon you can stand the heat.:D

Dr. Bill
DR Bill

Forgive me, I may have caused or contributed to your confusion in my post #6 wherein I was commenting on Bill Smiths post #5. He was "considering" the option of playing position for the 5 and 8 balls, but he was taking the path of four rails around the table (as if that route was commonplace and being considered by others also wanting to get onto the 5 or the 8), and completely ignored the option being discussed which was to draw the CB up table behind the 5 and 8 balls.:rolleyes:

I was being sarcastic, in attempting to point out the irony and disconnect of viewpoints between one pocket players and 3C players, but it seemed to sail over the heads.:sorry

I'll have to be more direct in the future.
 

mr3cushion

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Hey Wait a minute!!!!

Hey Wait a minute!!!!

In this situation your opponent pocket scratched when needing two balls. You had three. With a draw stroke, you have just pocketed the spot shot and now the three ball is primed. You now have four. The question is; do you play for the eight and five now or do you bank the one first?

Tom
Wait a minute, I just thought of something!

If I just had CB in Hand, why not shoot the 5 ball FIRST and then play for the 3, spotted ball and maybe you'd be able to get on the 8, or you still have the bank on the 1 ball!

To get on the 3 ball correctly, play 5 O'clock English, with a 'Soft stun' stroke!

I can't believe I didn't see this sooner!!! And, NO ONE else did!

Here's how it looks to me!

I think this is the BEST solution so far!

View attachment 11908
 
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Tom Wirth

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Bill, it was a hypothetical situation designed for this specific problem. :)

Tom
 
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