Wwyd Frost/Chohan

wincardona

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The five into the fifteen is a pure sucker shot. There are at least three ways to sell out a bank with that shot, and the rewards.... Where are they? If you are fortunate enough to lay the five on the foot rail, what of the fifteen? How accurate must you hit of those two balls to avoid giving up a bank on one or the other? And what did you gain if you do manage that shot? The return shot is a simple take out of the ball on the foot rail, sticking the rock there, or maybe moving the fifteen safely back to your side. Take your pick. If I saw my opponent about to shoot that shot I'd want springs in my shoes to help get me out of my chair a little faster. Forget it!

Tom
This is one of the rare times that i"m going to have to disagree with you Tom, sorry. I do understand that this type of shot in many cases is an ill advised shot, however, not so in this situation, allow me to explain my thinking.

The cue ball is close enough to the 5ball to judge and control the action and speed with all three balls cue ball 5ball and 15ball. The shot should be executed by drawing the cue ball 12" straight back ending up behind the 8ball while sending both balls to your side rail below the side pocket. This shot if executed correctly gives the shooter a strong positional advantage, especially considering the score being that the shooter needs two balls to his opponents three. Drawing behind the 8ball is the key to this option, plus your opponent will now have more pressure on him playing from the new positiom.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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This is one of the rare times that i"m going to have to disagree with you Tom, sorry. I do understand that this type of shot in many cases is an ill advised shot, however, not so in this situation, allow me to explain my thinking.

The cue ball is close enough to the 5ball to judge and control the action and speed with all three balls cue ball 5ball and 15ball. The shot should be executed by drawing the cue ball 12" straight back ending up behind the 8ball while sending both balls to your side rail below the side pocket. This shot if executed correctly gives the shooter a strong positional advantage, especially considering the score being that the shooter needs two balls to his opponents three. Drawing behind the 8ball is the key to this option, plus your opponent will now have more pressure on him playing from the new positiom.

Dr. Bill
Dr. Thank you for contributing your thoughts on this shot. They are much appreciated as are all your posts. I too will rarely disagree with your observations.

I still hold to my opinion that the shot is a poor choice, and I will reiterate my reasoning first by challenging your positioning of the cue ball. By drawing the cue ball 12" you now provide a third possibility to your opponent. That being a cross corner bank on the eight.

If the five does not reach the side rail and remains close to the foot rail, Tony may then be in a position to bank the eight and follow the cue ball behind the fifteen. If the bank on eight is no good there may be a safe bank on the fifteen. If the five does make it to the side rail there may be an opportunity to bank it and play for either a straight in shot or possibly another bank on the fifteen. If none of these options are available the shot will still not produce a trap which cannot easily be neutralized by a player of Tony's abilities.

Bottom line, my opinion is that there are too many possible negative outcomes with that shot, and the benefits are outweighed by them. Conversely, by thinly lagging off the side of the eight and sending it toward Scott's side with good touch there is zero risk for Scott and he gains total control of the table, especially if he can lay the cue ball dead behind the fifteen. Though this lag shot appears to be a 100% defensive shot, it is what I consider "controlled aggression". I will have gained considerable value with the minimum of effort or risk.

That being said, I cannot understand why in the world Scott would attempt the cut on the eight. I've seen him do things like that before. These, imo are the kind of shot choices that hold Scott back from truly reaching his potential. Even if he had made this shot, it still would have been the wrong decision because in the long run it is a loser.

Tom
 
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Mkbtank

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Wwyd Frost/Chohan

Dr. Thank you for contributing your thoughts on this shot. They are much appreciated as are all your posts. I too will rarely disagree with your observations.

I still hold to my opinion that the shot is a poor choice, and I will reiterate my reasoning first by challenging your positioning of the cue ball. By drawing the cue ball 12" you now provide a third possibility to your opponent. That being a cross corner bank on the eight.

If the five does not reach the side rail, Tony may then be in a position to bank the eight and follow the cue ball behind the fifteen. If the bank on eight is no good there may be a safe bank on the fifteen. That is if the five does not reach the side rail. If the five does make it to the side rail there may be an opportunity to bank it and play for either a straight in shot or possibly another bank on the fifteen. If none of these options are available the shot will still not produce a trap which can not easily be neutralized by a player of Tony's abilities.

Bottom line, my opinion is that there are too many possible negative outcomes with that shot, and the benefits are outweighed by them. Conversely, by thinly lagging off the side of the eight and sending it toward Scott's side with good touch there is zero risk for Scott and he gains total control of the table, especially if he can lay the cue ball dead behind the fifteen. Though this lag shot appears to be a 100% defensive shot, it is what I consider "controlled aggression". I will have gained considerable value with the minimum of effort or risk.

That being said, I cannot understand why in the world Scott would attempt the cut on the eight. I've seen him do things like that before. These, imo are the kind of shot choices that hold Scott back from truly reaching his potential. Even if he had made this shot, it still would have been the wrong decision because in the long run it is a loser.

Tom


This is one of the rare times that i"m going to have to disagree with you Tom, sorry. I do understand that this type of shot in many cases is an ill advised shot, however, not so in this situation, allow me to explain my thinking.

The cue ball is close enough to the 5ball to judge and control the action and speed with all three balls cue ball 5ball and 15ball. The shot should be executed by drawing the cue ball 12" straight back ending up behind the 8ball while sending both balls to your side rail below the side pocket. This shot if executed correctly gives the shooter a strong positional advantage, especially considering the score being that the shooter needs two balls to his opponents three. Drawing behind the 8ball is the key to this option, plus your opponent will now have more pressure on him playing from the new positiom.

Dr. Bill


Well Gents... You are in luck. After the game Dr Bill (and Chris G) were admonishing Frost and the good Dr showed him what he should have done in his opinion. And I recorded it for this thread 😊. Here is Billy shooting his shot (which Scott agreed would have been better than his choice)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvN36H7QBKQ[/ame]
 

wincardona

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Aug 7, 2007
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Well Gents... You are in luck. After the game Dr Bill (and Chris G) were admonishing Frost and the good Dr showed him what he should have done in his opinion. And I recorded it for this thread 😊. Here is Billy shooting his shot (which Scott agreed would have been better than his choice)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvN36H7QBKQ
Thanks Mitch for showing the shot as I envisioned and executed it. This option imo is a strong choice to gain the advantage in the battle for ball position. Tom's option is a better option to escape the danger from the initial position, but not imo the better choice to win the game with.

I executed the shot very well and got good results because of it but the execution of the shot was not difficult when you consider how convenient the balls are positioned. The cue ball and 5ball are close enough to one another to feel comfortable with the accuracy of the hit and the speed needed to control all the balls involved in the shot, cue ball included. This option the way the balls are laying is an easy shot to execute yielding good results a very high percentage of the time. Plus you are clearing your opponents side of the table and making his job much more difficult in terms of winning the game. If you notice after the shot is executed your olponent will have a long cross corner at best with little to no chance of winnig off the shot. That's the kind of pressure this option produces and juzt one of the many reasons to consider this option as your choice in situations similar to this one.

Dr. Bill
 

LSJohn

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If you could peek into Frost's mind as he made his decision you'd see a demon whispering "If you make it they will go wild.... they will love you... they will have to admit that only bad luck can ever beat you."

What the demon says to me is a little bit different: "If you make this they'll have to admit you're NOT the worst one pocket player on the planet." :p
 
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