WWYD: Efren vs. SVB

bstroud

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#$&?*!@# :frus

Dr. Bill
Billy,

With balls on both rails Shane could leave the cue ball behind the stack or the 2 ball near Effrens' pocket and have a real advantage.

I would still have kicked the 1 ball in and get it out of the game.

Bill S.
 

NH Steve

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Cory, If I may. The shot Billy is suggesting or at least the one I envisioned Billy was suggesting was to three rail the OB but one rail the cue ball. The idea being that the cue ball runs directly to the top rail and straight down the table parallel to the opposite side rail from the starting position.

The OB and cue ball must be in ideal positions for this shot to work so fiddle around with it until you discover the proper juxtaposition for both balls.

Have fun. :)

Dr. Bill, I apologize if I stepped on your shot but since Cory added my name in his post I took advantage of the timing. It happens to be one of my favorites and I rarely see it utilized.

Tom
I believe you are talking about the same shot (in concept) that I posted in a recent wwyd thread -- just a slight angle cut for the three-railer on the object ball and the cue ball goes one rail back toward the foot end of the table. It's a natural if it is laying right :D:D

You can see how I diagrammed it here:
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8628&stc=1&d=1374540286

PS. I did not post the diagram image intentionally this time (just the link, instead), because I don't want to confuse people about different games and layouts.
 

Tom Wirth

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Yes Steve, That is basically the same shot. Thanks

The situation you display here does not require the arcing motion on the cue ball is the only difference. That is due to the angle being a little more direct into the OB than the more recent illustration.

Tom
 

gulfportdoc

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The shot Effrin shot and the result he got is simply above my pay grade.

Having said that all he accomplished is to escape the trap he was in.

He created no leverage and will probably find himself in a worse situation soon.

What happened from here? Bill S.
I agree. Efren made a great shot, but he hardly left SVB in a "trap". I would lag the CB two rails-- up to the head rail down to Efren's side rail, and roll up against the 4/5. Now THAT'S a trap. Efren would have to go for the bank on the 10, or dink around with the 4/5.

SVB also could have concocted the same 2-railer after slicing the 13 ball thin. Even a one rail safe wouldn't be the worst shot in the world; or an intentional safety.

Doc
 

backplaying

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I agree. Efren made a great shot, but he hardly left SVB in a "trap". I would lag the CB two rails-- up to the head rail down to Efren's side rail, and roll up against the 4/5. Now THAT'S a trap. Efren would have to go for the bank on the 10, or dink around with the 4/5.

SVB also could have concocted the same 2-railer after slicing the 13 ball thin. Even a one rail safe wouldn't be the worst shot in the world; or an intentional safety.

Doc
I like the 2 rail behind the 5 from here, or if he can just roll behind the 10 ball. Knowing Shane he might kick the 10 to his side and put the cue ball in the stack or behind it anyway.
 

Cory in dc

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For the record, you can buy this great match for $15 from TAR here: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/tar34. It's video on demand, which is much better than DVD if you have regular access to a laptop, iPad, or digital TV.

Efren's shot comes at 42:45. It's much more impressive to watch than to see on a sketch. Also, re-watching it, I see that he hit the 10 plenty hard: the 10-ball came to the foot rail and then rolled back to the position that I posted. This makes Efren's shot much stronger than I had originally thought: he was definitely aiming the 10 ball at the 4/5 cluster and missed it by about 1.5". If he had hit that cluster, SVB is in a lot of trouble.

In any case, Shane's return was pretty lame: he thinned the 9-ball and drifted the cueball back towards the stack, but came up a little short. Nevertheless, Efren sold out the 1 in the process of improving the 4/5, then Shane had a chance to get out but didn't, and Efren ground out a win from down 0-5 (and then down 1-7).

Cory
 

wincardona

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I agree. Efren made a great shot, but he hardly left SVB in a "trap". (Artie, Reyes was in the trap, not Shane. Reyes made a great shot that allowed him to escape the trap possibly long enough to wiggle completely out of it. I certainly would of taken Reye's result considering where he shot from.) I would lag the CB two rails-- up to the head rail down to Efren's side rail, and roll up against the 4/5. Now THAT'S a trap. ( I agree with your answer to Reyes shot but you still have to execute the shot to put him in trouble. That's the benefit Reyes received from his perfectly executed shot that you didn't like) Efren would have to go for the bank on the 10, or dink around with the 4/5.

SVB also could have concocted the same 2-railer after slicing the 13 ball thin. Even a one rail safe wouldn't be the worst shot in the world; or an intentional safety.

Doc
Believe it or not there are situations where there is only so much you can do, and after doing as much as you can do your fate is often in the hands of your opponent. However, there are also times when your opponent can't either execute nor think out a good return shot to your shot, and it's times like that, that you get rewarded for your effort.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Billy,

With balls on both rails Shane could leave the cue ball behind the stack or the 2 ball near Effrens' pocket and have a real advantage.

I would still have kicked the 1 ball in and get it out of the game.

Bill S.
Billy, if Reyes was confident that he could of kicked the 1ball in he would have. Obviously the 10ball blocked the natural angle of the kick which then made the kick much harder. Reyes shot a well thought out shot and hit it almost perfectly. Had the 10ball touched the 4 or 5ball near his pocket we wouldn't be having this discussion, instead we would be praising him for the great shot he executed.:frus The kick on the 1ball was a difficult shot with little reward in comparison to the reward Reyes option would have yielded had he hit either the 4ball or 5ball with his shot.

Don't forget that if Reyes would of opted to kick at the 1ball he's conceding at least one ball or possibly many more, by opting to shoot his option there's a chance he won't concede anything.

Dr. Bill
 

Cory in dc

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Cory, a little hint. The OB needs to be approx. a balls width closer to the cushion than the cue ball and the shot works better when both balls are well below the side pocket. You want plenty of room for the cue ball to arc toward the top rail. Also, English is not the overriding force which arcs the cue ball, follow does that. So concentrate on a modest amount of English with a full high ball.

Good luck experimenting. This shot will lead to other shots of a similar nature. It is always fun learning new things which opens doors we never knew existed. Pretty soon you will need a bigger quiver to house all those arrows. :)

Tom
This shot is ridiculously strong when laid out as you describe or thereabouts.

It's a natural self-correcting 3-railer: there's about a 3 or 4" wide area on the head rail to the left of the diamond where the shot goes. On a pro-cut diamond, I made it close to 50%, including my first three in a row. Bobbled and stayed near my pocket a bunch of times, too. The only way to screw it up is to not put a good follow stroke on it--if the CB doesn't bend, then you get a scratch or a double-kiss. Otherwise, the cue comes back downtable like clockwork.

I owe Billy and Tom a beer for this shot!

This was fun, I'll have to post a few more WWYDs. I've got a big pile of Accustats make it happen DVDs to work through.
 

Tom Wirth

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This shot is ridiculously strong when laid out as you describe or thereabouts.

It's a natural self-correcting 3-railer: there's about a 3 or 4" wide area on the head rail to the left of the diamond where the shot goes. On a pro-cut diamond, I made it close to 50%, including my first three in a row. Bobbled and stayed near my pocket a bunch of times, too. The only way to screw it up is to not put a good follow stroke on it--if the CB doesn't bend, then you get a scratch or a double-kiss. Otherwise, the cue comes back downtable like clockwork.

I owe Billy and Tom a beer for this shot!

This was fun, I'll have to post a few more WWYDs. I've got a big pile of Accustats make it happen DVDs to work through.
Cory, It warms my soul to know I've helped in some small way. Good shooting, and always remember, the journey to knowledge is more important than the destination.

I'll take a Yuengling!

Tom
 

gulfportdoc

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Originally Posted by gulfportdoc and Cardone:
... Efren made a great shot, but he hardly left SVB in a "trap". (Artie, Reyes was in the trap, not Shane. Reyes made a great shot that allowed him to escape the trap possibly long enough to wiggle completely out of it. I certainly would of taken Reye's result considering where he shot from.) I would lag the CB two rails-- up to the head rail down to Efren's side rail, and roll up against the 4/5. Now THAT'S a trap. ( I agree with your answer to Reyes shot but you still have to execute the shot to put him in trouble. That's the benefit Reyes received from his perfectly executed shot that you didn't like) Efren would have to go for the bank on the 10, or dink around with the 4/5.

SVB also could have concocted the same 2-railer after slicing the 13 ball thin. Even a one rail safe wouldn't be the worst shot in the world; or an intentional safety. Doc


Billy, if every once in awhile you'd actually think about what a poster has written, then formulate your point, those posts would make more sense.:rolleyes:

I KNOW Reyes was in the initial trap. Then he made a great 3-rail shot to play safe. My point was that the position SVB was in resulting from Reyes' shot was not a "trap", as some had insinuated. Shane had several good options, 3-4 of which I suggested. Turns out SVB undershot his choice, causing a weak safety.

I DID like Reyes' shot.... for Reyes. Not for Doc, or any other player who doesn't have a Reyes-like touch. And I've played plenty of 3C.;)

Doc
 

wincardona

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Originally Posted by gulfportdoc and Cardone:
... Efren made a great shot, but he hardly left SVB in a "trap". (Artie, Reyes was in the trap, not Shane. Reyes made a great shot that allowed him to escape the trap possibly long enough to wiggle completely out of it. I certainly would of taken Reye's result considering where he shot from.) I would lag the CB two rails-- up to the head rail down to Efren's side rail, and roll up against the 4/5. Now THAT'S a trap. ( I agree with your answer to Reyes shot but you still have to execute the shot to put him in trouble. That's the benefit Reyes received from his perfectly executed shot that you didn't like) Efren would have to go for the bank on the 10, or dink around with the 4/5.

SVB also could have concocted the same 2-railer after slicing the 13 ball thin. Even a one rail safe wouldn't be the worst shot in the world; or an intentional safety. Doc


Billy, if every once in awhile you'd actually think about what a poster has written, ( Every once in a while:mad:) then formulate your point, those posts would make more sense.:rolleyes:

I KNOW Reyes was in the initial trap. Then he made a great 3-rail shot to play safe. My point was that the position SVB was in resulting from Reyes' shot was not a "trap", as some had insinuated. Shane had several good options, 3-4 of which I suggested. Turns out SVB undershot his choice, causing a weak safety.

I DID like Reyes' shot.... for Reyes. Not for Doc, or any other player who doesn't have a Reyes-like touch. And I've played plenty of 3C.;)

Doc
My bad, ok :sorry I mistook your statement as a knock against the shot, however, I disagree (to an extent) Reyes did put Shane in a trap and out-maneuvered him to gain an opportunity to escape the initial trap that Reyes was in. Of coursed it wasn't a death trap, if that's what you mean.:D

And all along I thought I was your home-boy:heh

Dr. Bill
 

piggybank04

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all of this great discussion makes me think of one thing, grinding--he puts you in a tough spot, you maybe take 10 shots to completely reverse it, then he does the same thing, and on it goes.... to me, thats what its all about......what an amazing game and we are all very lucky to be a part of it......
 

gulfportdoc

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My bad, ok :sorry I mistook your statement as a knock against the shot, however, I disagree (to an extent) Reyes did put Shane in a trap and out-maneuvered him to gain an opportunity to escape the initial trap that Reyes was in. Of coursed it wasn't a death trap, if that's what you mean.:D

And all along I thought I was your home-boy:heh Dr. Bill
I LOVES ya, bro! But sometimes you make me recall the words from the great philosopher, Bart Maverick, who said, "It's not so much that the fox is so smart; it's just that he can't think any slower". ;)

Doc
 
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