WWYD at The Broken Rack

Kybanks

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As a 9/7 dog playing the game shooting the 13ball would be a viable option IMO, however, if you were a 9/7 favorite facing this situation then what would you do? I'm kicking for sure. And as a 9/7 dog facing this situation I'm 50/50 shooting the 13ball but if I'm feeling good then I'm shooting.

Dr. Bill
Well I took the kick shot and the cut shot to the table and they were both sell outs. Only shooting them ONCE, as in a game situation. As I looked for another option I came up with what I believe to be the highest % of execution. Shoot the cb down the rail and have it nudge the 13 ball, cb hits a rail and both balls stick together with the 13 ball straight in to your pocket and the cb 1\2 inch from it. Shot this option 1 time and hit it perfect! The incoming player has no option but to let you move the 10 ball.
 

Thecoats

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Well I took the kick shot and the cut shot to the table and they were both sell outs. Only shooting them ONCE, as in a game situation. As I looked for another option I came up with what I believe to be the highest % of execution. Shoot the cb down the rail and have it nudge the 13 ball, cb hits a rail and both balls stick together with the 13 ball straight in to your pocket and the cb 1\2 inch from it. Shot this option 1 time and hit it perfect! The incoming player has no option but to let you move the 10 ball.
This was the shot I was talking about as one of my options.
 

unoperro

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13 appears less then a ball width off the rail?
I believe 13 is just about a ball off the rail so I dont see nudging it and getting safe with out fouling?
 

jrhendy

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If you want to shoot, how about banking the 13 and spininning the cue to take out the 10(?) in the corner? But I am in the camp to kick at the 10 ball using the short rail as the 2nd rail to try to bank that ball to my side.
Would work for a billiard player. What if you get underneath and scratch? Both balls are now in the open.
 

Billy Jackets

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I am possibly the worst ball maker in this group, but even I am shooting at my hole on this shot. The absolute last thing I would do, is shoot the 13 at the 10, I had to find out the hard way as usual , that so many things can go wrong on this kind of shot, especially double kisses.
 

TxOnePocket

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Aug 31, 2006
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Anything but the kick with both you needing two is careless to say the least, a two rail kick underneath the ball doesn't have much chance of a scratch and a nudge/maybe foul has 0 chance, I'd rather foul under that ball than just give it up on a careless hail mary.

My other option if I have to pick one is two railing the 13 with enough speed to send it back towards the 14 if missed, stun drawing the cue ball back towards the corner pocket and short rail, even if you give up the 10 ball dont leave the cross bank to lose.
 

Nick B

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I've played a lot of golf so this is a bit of a specialty shot for me. Especially on fresh cloth and the fact that the pocket lets me comfortably see the bottom of the cueball. My biggest problem is overspinning it and cutting it in.

I would ONLY recommend this for those who know and have developed a feel for this shot. If you kick it from behind you are a 6:1 favorite to get safe.
 

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Tobermory

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This is what makes one hole the best of all the pool games. Out of this fairly simple situation, with only a few viable options available, comes such a useful outpouring of wisdom and experience. As I stood there waiting for Joe to decide and shoot, I thought he'd go for the cut shot because he is more of a shooter than a mover, and he's willing to lose the ranch on a tough shot. I also thought to myself that if it were me in his shoes, I wouldn't want to lose the game on this shot, so I'd go for the kick and try and lay the cue ball down under the ball near my hole, not touching the 10 at all, a shot that should be pretty easy to execute. I'd take the penalty figuring that whatever he does, I'd be able to knock that ball away on my next shot, and I'd still be alive. Cutting the 13 or using it to try and knock away the 10 never featured in my considerations. In my estimation, I'd like to say that I can cut that 13 in maybe half the time but the truth is likely less than that. Knowing that it is an almost certain loser if I fail makes it harder to execute, too. I like Dave's billiards shot, and would try to come off the short rail into the back of the 10, but c'mon, the odds don't favor that kind of heroic adventurism.

After looking 'em over, Joe got down to shoot the kick shot, but for reasons I'm not clear on, he badly miscued and fouled leaving the cue ball in the middle of the table. I made the duck and got position on the 13 and got out for the game.


Disgusted, Joe set up the balls again using my picture and showed me what he intended to do, a shot that nobody here devined: he kicked it two rails and pushed the 10 ball away from my pocket, as shown in the attached picture. He insisted that was the plan, with an intent to aim it so that if he missed the 10 ball the cue ball would just slide to the short rail and stay below the ball. Pretty elegant solution, and he pulled it off (with a second chance.)
 

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Seb Pauchon

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he kicked it two rails and pushed the 10 ball away from my pocket, as shown in the attached picture. He insisted that was the plan, with an intent to aim it so that if he missed the 10 ball the cue ball would just slide to the short rail and stay below the ball. Pretty elegant solution, and he pulled it off (with a second chance.)
Risky, no?
It looks like the 10 doesn't need much to become a return bank (see bellow).
 

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Tom Wirth

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So lets see how many ways it is possible to sell out the game with the kick shot.

1. Miss cue or not strike the shot hard enough to reach the ten ball.
This was done on Joe's first attempt. Understandable considering that the cue ball is nearly frozen to the side rail he was shooting from.

2. Strike the shot a touch too hard and short and run the cue ball off both side rails and the foot rail selling out the ten and spotting a ball providing an easy two ball run for the game.

3. Strike the shot a touch too hard and run the cue ball three rails around the ten side rail,foot rail, side rail. Again spotting a ball and leaving an easy run of two for the game.

4. Strike the shot a touch too hard and run the cue ball side rail short rail and scratch off the bottom of the ten. Spot a ball and leave an easy two ball run for the game.

5. Strike the shot as planned but fail to get either the ten or cue ball to a rail. Spot a ball and though Joe is still in the game he is behind in the count 7 -4.

6. Strike the shot short and run the cue ball side rail, side rail, seling out the ten and spotting a ball for the easy two ball run for the game.

7. As Seb pointed out it is also possible to leave a cross corner bank on the ten even though the hit was as intended.

8. There are two double kiss possibilities here. One on either side the the ten. Now I don't know it those double kisses are on or not but just viewing a single photo tells me you don't know either. And if the double kisses are there will they sell out the ten? Who's to say?

With all that I'm sure there are those who will insist the kick shot is the best option. They are certainly entitled to their opinions but I smell a prop bet in the making here. Something I have not offered on OP.org before but will in this case. I'll take the cut you take the kick. Ten shots each, play the game out for the win.

9. Oh yeah, There's one more possible outcome with the kick shot. Kick the ten either in the pocket or hang it. This possibility doesn't necessarily sell out the game (the 13 and 14 wil not be easy balls to play shape on but it makes the incoming player a big favorite to win.

Tom
 
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El Chapo

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I'm cutting the 13 for my pocket with a firm stroke. I would want to give myself the best chance I can get to pocket the ball so whatever I need to do to accomplish that, that is how I will want to play the shot. I have also played the shot with a zig zag pattern on the cue ball, sending it side rail side rail towards the ball near my opponent's pocket. This I might do if I feel the three balls are ideally positioned. I've played this shot in this way numerous times with a high success rate. There is a reasonable chance I can leave the cue ball down low and along his side rail. If that happens he won't have much of a shot on it. Either way I'm shooting of my pocket in this situation.

As was stated by others, there are several ways to sell out the kick shot which is a purely defensive shot. The cut shot is not much more difficult, so for my money I'd rather go down swinging than I would ducking. This also sends a message. I know of no player who prefers seeing their opponent shooting at their hole verses playing safeties.

One more thing that favors the cut shot for me. If miss the shot but I over cut the 13, it will run three rails towards the top left corner essentially taking it out of play. I'm very likely still in the hunt should I sell out that one ball.

One other factor that was not mentioned. Is the 13 ball past the foul line? If it is than anyone contemplating the kick is asking for trouble.

Tom
Stated like a man who has lost games ducking when he had a shot. Lose a good 200 or so games over the years ducking when you had a shot and things finally start to dawn on you. The interesting part is then, knowing you are taking the right shots, these type shots start falling in the hole more often.
 

El Chapo

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Idk if anybody picked this shot, but if i was forced to duck here i know exactly what i would do. Call me a banger if you want i dont care i have been in this spot enough times to know it works, even though i would not shoot this i would shoot at my hole...

If i had to duck here i would kick one rail 100 miles per hour at his hanger. One rail! Idk why but that gets me personally out of this spot almost every time... but i still would not shoot that. lol
 

jtompilot

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I've played a lot of golf so this is a bit of a specialty shot for me. Especially on fresh cloth and the fact that the pocket lets me comfortably see the bottom of the cueball. My biggest problem is overspinning it and cutting it in.

I would ONLY recommend this for those who know and have developed a feel for this shot. If you kick it from behind you are a 6:1 favorite to get safe.
I’ve shot similar shots a bunch and is probably as high a percentage as anything else for me. It’s a shot worth practicing and getting comfortable with.
 

Nick B

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I’ve shot similar shots a bunch and is probably as high a percentage as anything else for me. It’s a shot worth practicing and getting comfortable with.
It's not for everybody but if you have it in your bag it worth doing,
 

catkins

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slight masse shots are so super important in one pocket so many times after the break you can bend to extract and hide or make banks . Playing rafeal martinez and his use of full mases was mind opening about how easily you can use masse to get out of tight positions.
 

unoperro

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I've played a lot of golf so this is a bit of a specialty shot for me. Especially on fresh cloth and the fact that the pocket lets me comfortably see the bottom of the cueball. My biggest problem is overspinning it and cutting it in.

I would ONLY recommend this for those who know and have developed a feel for this shot. If you kick it from behind you are a 6:1 favorite to get safe.

6:1 is that canuck calculus:sorry
Kick from behind
Hit left side 33% chance its safe
Hit right side its 33% its safe.

I figure you can hit it too soft or you can hit it too hard...or you can get safe.

Full cue jumps , like this one, arent any harder then masse shots;)
 

Nick B

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6:1 is that canuck calculus:sorry
Kick from behind
Hit left side 33% chance its safe
Hit right side its 33% its safe.

I figure you can hit it too soft or you can hit it too hard...or you can get safe.

Full cue jumps , like this one, arent any harder then masse shots;)
Maybe but I would bet that hitting it from behind "thick" would be close because cueball will stay there around the pocket and the object ball will probably go two rails to the opposite corner like a conventional behind the ball take out. "Thin" can also work because your cue ball goes up table and you flick object ball to middle of table or better...but I would prefer "thick". It all comes down to what the shooter can execute not what the room thinks. I play with a Predator P3 shaft and a soft tip. Not the best tool for jumping (and I'm 5'7" on a good day). I'm not jumping with a gun to my head but if you can consistently hit the jump shot I'm all for it...just think results will vary greatly with that. Think about how often even at a pro level that jumps result in cue ball scratches after a good hit. Things happen when the ball leaves the floor.
 

unoperro

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Maybe but I would bet that hitting it from behind "thick" would be close because cueball will stay there around the pocket and the object ball will probably go two rails to the opposite corner like a conventional behind the ball take out. "Thin" can also work because your cue ball goes up table and you flick object ball to middle of table or better...but I would prefer "thick". It all comes down to what the shooter can execute not what the room thinks. I play with a Predator P3 shaft and a soft tip. Not the best tool for jumping (and I'm 5'7" on a good day). I'm not jumping with a gun to my head but if you can consistently hit the jump shot I'm all for it...just think results will vary greatly with that. Think about how often even at a pro level that jumps result in cue ball scratches after a good hit. Things happen when the ball leaves the floor.
Good reply:)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I like kicking just short of the side pocket with cb then going to long rail and into the back side of the ob and knocking it to the foot rail.
I have tried many other shots and scenarios and this one seemed for me to be the most consistent. Probably others have chose this very same shot, I have not read the posts as of yet.

My 2nd choice is to slow roll the cb into the 10 and put him behind it. The problem is that there is no way to protect against the return shot of him just putting you back behind the 13.

I am not a fan of using the 13 to take out the ball by the hole for I would not want to possibly put another ball down on foot end of the table.

A fun shot is to 1 rail bank the 13 and then go around 3 rails with the cb and land on the 10. Whitey
 
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