Would you put this last ball into play, in a serious game?

Tom Wirth

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NOt bad, but isn't it much easier to play off the ball closest to the cue ball? By playing off the four and hiding it behind the string of three spotted balls you now force the opponent to break up the trio and keep the cue ball close to the end rail. This makes it easy to get the balls out of play again and own the game.

Has anyone here ever thought of playing One Pocket with a cube like they do in Backgammon?

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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We are now officially looking at two distinctly different WEI table layouts. Good luck fellers.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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NOt bad, but isn't it much easier to play off the ball closest to the cue ball? By playing off the four and hiding it behind the string of three spotted balls you now force the opponent to break up the trio and keep the cue ball close to the end rail. This makes it easy to get the balls out of play again and own the game.

Has anyone here ever thought of playing One Pocket with a cube like they do in Backgammon?

Tom
Either shot has pluses and minuses. To go off the 4 means you must get behind the three spotted balls. I truly don't know which shot I like better.

Dennis
 

Tom Wirth

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Pretty easy to do once you have the speed down and even if you don't hide the four as long as you get the cue ball well below the string of balls there is nothing dangerous the opponent can do to you.

I know....famous last words right?

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Pretty easy to do once you have the speed down and even if you don't hide the four as long as you get the cue ball well below the string of balls there is nothing dangerous the opponent can do to you.

I know....famous last words right?

Tom
Tom,

If you don't hide the 4 from the cueball then you have given up "the move" even if you've given up nothing else.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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Letting him kick at 4 spotted balls can't possibly be the answer. Your opponent might even get all 4 balls to his side of the table if he hits it good.

And he can kick 2 rails from anywhere on the head rail, so it can't be a good choice to leave him there.
I propose a tad past that diamond (somebody diagrammed my shot good, but I'd want to go a tad further). Set up that 2 rail kick and try it if you can. If everyone can do it every time, i'm wrong.

I have played guys like say shannon enough to know that the first guy to make a ball here wins. People like to talk about "out of play". How out of play is a ball on the end rail or side rail downtable, and a guy is playing position on it, like for a bank. IT is like a little better than even money for him. Out of play is hanging in a hole down there. End game I think the words "out of play" get overused. There is not too much that is out of play down there. Now when you get 3 or 4 down there it is different, that would be 3 or 4 even money propositions at best. That is a big difference.

This is a poor point, i'll admit, but the other thing is it is possible to take a crap on the safety and say go right in a hole. Not likely, but execution wise my shot is at 100%.

Anyway, somebody talk about that 2 rail kick from where I have mentioned. IF that is a reasonable kick maybe you guys are right. But I feel like my shot you will have a better chance to get balls out of play in an inning or two, and you have a great chance to win as well.... the guy is frozen and you must break up a cluster. I just see this as letting rules rule us.
 
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tylerdurden

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Artie gave his opinion and Steve Booth drew up the shot. AB gave it his okey-doke:).





View attachment 7419

Although I don't mind playing off the left side of the 4 ball and putting the cueball by my opponents pocket I like AB's shot too because it busts up the balls and starts the process so you can move them uptable. What to do, what to do?:D
Oh god. I respect artie to no end, and I dont know what type of equipment he plays on, but this cb rolls off a 1/8 of an inch (which happens all the time) and you are looking at not pretty stuff. I hate it.
 

tylerdurden

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TD,

Are you saying to shoot the 4 in and draw back to diamond 1? I don't know what the Duck would do because he never replied in the original thread but if you leave him here I'd bet $10000 that I know what he'd do, and he'd do it well.



View attachment 7417
Yes, maybe a little past there if possible. I understand I may be wrong on this, but I dont see that 2 rail kick as a feasible shot. This is a really bad position for the guy to be in. When playing good players, I have noticed the longer you play, the more miraculous stuff they pull out (with their backs against the wall). I feel l'll be ending this game quick with my shot, or getting them out of play next shot. I just see it differently I guess :)

Trying so hard to keep one ball "out of play" does not make sense to me (unless it is hanging in a hole downtable, that is strong and out of play).
 

WillieNilly

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lets say we hit the "thin off the 4 and leave the qball behind the 3 spotted balls " perfect to what the wei diagram shows.
as the guy who needs them all im responding with an intentional scratch ,freezin the q (or tryin to ) to the back off the 3 , disloging the head ball a inch and sandwich the 3 ,Q and my spotted ball right there., not in a perfect line but tight and off angel
where you gonna leave me , i f you dont you take a scratch back i will have a good chance at somthin offensie here ,we got 3 loose balls up and down table .
if you scratch back i still am accomplishing somthing and will have an easier way out then my opponent from that side of the stack.
as response to the original shot , if you need 1 and shoot the 4 in you did not help yourself no matter where qball is.
i like arties shot if you hit it good . personally id be afraid i didn't get the 3 ball out of banking danger cause a desperate player can shoot it evev if its not high percentage , and hurt you if he made it cause all the balls are open.
im just rollin up on top the 4 right there. so he cant shoot it in ,leave em jacked up or partialy so its not an easy shot at the spotted balls and it leaves no bank , and if he comes with a circus shot he got 1 and needs 3, as well as the 4 is still in banking position if he gets careless with the qball and leaves a free shot .

from there its another thread shot to discuss .
 
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androd

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l
as the guy who needs them all im responding with an intentional scratch ,freezin the q (or tryin to ) to the back off the 3 , disloging the head ball a inch and sandwich the 3 ,Q and my spotted ball right there., not in a perfect line but tight and off angel
where you gonna leave me , i f you dont you take a scratch back i will have a good chance at somthin offensie here ,we got 3 loose balls up and down table .
You really haven't done anything, except spot a ball. It'll be easy to rub off the 3 ball ( to one side or the other ) and put you back on the rail where you were, without leaving much of a shot.
Rod.
 

Dudley

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Yes, maybe a little past there if possible. I understand I may be wrong on this, but I dont see that 2 rail kick as a feasible shot. This is a really bad position for the guy to be in. When playing good players, I have noticed the longer you play, the more miraculous stuff they pull out (with their backs against the wall). I feel l'll be ending this game quick with my shot, or getting them out of play next shot. I just see it differently I guess :)

Trying so hard to keep one ball "out of play" does not make sense to me (unless it is hanging in a hole downtable, that is strong and out of play).
I wouldn't intentionally leave my opponent the 2 rail kick. It works darn well a pretty good percentage of the time. If the cue ball went further than the diagram dennis showed imo that would be a worse place as it would make the 2 railer into the row of balls more playable.

My vote is for the artie shot even with the soft speed. When I play one pocket I rely on the table to roll fairly well. If I couldn't execute this shot because of the rolling out of the table I'd find another one to play on. This isn't a terribly soft shot you're hitting the head ball pretty full.

Dudley
 

tylerdurden

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I wouldn't intentionally leave my opponent the 2 rail kick. It works darn well a pretty good percentage of the time. If the cue ball went further than the diagram dennis showed imo that would be a worse place as it would make the 2 railer into the row of balls more playable.

My vote is for the artie shot even with the soft speed. When I play one pocket I rely on the table to roll fairly well. If I couldn't execute this shot because of the rolling out of the table I'd find another one to play on. This isn't a terribly soft shot you're hitting the head ball pretty full.

Dudley
Well, i'll be honest here. When I got a better chance to look at and diagram this kick (and that other angle kinda threw me off), I don't like my shot. The kick does look pretty juicy. HE is kicking frozen though. I still don't loathe my shot, but I can see now that the kick is too strong of a potential reply. What do you guys think about putting him on the side rail there, just above the pocket?

At this point I personally like the mentioned shot going off the 4 and locking him up behind the 3 spotted balls. I don't like trying to hit those 3 balls, it is just too far and you're hitting that too soft (speaking of Artie's shot). I think you have to play good to win, sounds funny, but I see we want to gnit our way into the winners circle a lot. You gotta play good shots to win, and I do think that is the shot....even though I have lost all credibility here with my cra shot plus indecision :)
 

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Dudley

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Well, i'll be honest here. When I got a better chance to look at and diagram this kick (and that other angle kinda threw me off), I don't like my shot. The kick does look pretty juicy. HE is kicking frozen though. I still don't loathe my shot, but I can see now that the kick is too strong of a potential reply. What do you guys think about putting him on the side rail there, just above the pocket?

At this point I personally like the mentioned shot going off the 4 and locking him up behind the 3 spotted balls. I don't like trying to hit those 3 balls, it is just too far and you're hitting that too soft (speaking of Artie's shot). I think you have to play good to win, sounds funny, but I see we want to gnit our way into the winners circle a lot. You gotta play good shots to win, and I do think that is the shot....even though I have lost all credibility here with my cra shot plus indecision :)

Tyler,

Below is what I have in mind when I say the 2 railer... It hasn't been shown yet to my knowledge in this thread. It was discussed a while ago and this is what I think a typical "good outcome" is of the shot. I'm probably off about how the cue ball ends up on the end rail and where the other balls end up but unless I go mess around on a table I wouldn't know what the normal paths are. It doesn't always end up like this but there is a good chance of trouble for the incoming player.

Being frozen to the rail wouldn't hurt my execution of the shot If I knew where I should aim to hit the middle balls at the right speed.

I learned about this shot from the seasoned players here and have tucked it away in my memory for the right situation.

Dud

2 railer ideal outcome.PNG
 

tylerdurden

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Yeah, I don't think the cb will deflect over to the side rail, it will probably go toward the end rail with no real chance to scratch. But yes that is a good reply for sure.

I am curious to discuss at this point what people think about shooting the 4 in and coming further back though, over the pocket there, or even on the side rail just above the pocket.
 

vapros

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TD, haven't you just sent all the balls toward the wrong pocket? The two-rail kick is a good tactic, but not quite as easy from this angle.
 

tylerdurden

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TD, haven't you just sent all the balls toward the wrong pocket? The two-rail kick is a good tactic, but not quite as easy from this angle.
We kinda got off topic, I asked about replies after pocketing the 4 and drawing back past the corner over there. I personally concluded that the 2 rail kick is doable if you draw short of the pocket, but if you draw past it (from the position this thread started about), then that is a pretty strong spot. Anyway :confused:

Here is the shot i'm talking about from the initial op position, pocket the 4 and draw, maybe have to cheat the pocket a tad.
 

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Tom Wirth

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Tyler,
I'm a bit confused here. Who's shot would it be from this latest position?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Here is the shot i'm talking about from the initial op position, pocket the 4 and draw, maybe have to cheat the pocket a tad.
Cheat the pocket a tad??? Maybe hit it over the head with a .45 and when it's not looking put the cueball there:p.

I'm shooting some tomorrow and if I remember to charge the battery in my camera and if I remember to take it with me to the poolroom I will set up this 2-rail kick at the 4 balls, shoot it and then post the resulting pics...of the best layouts that represent my ideas anyway:D. You want to see yours??? Go shoot it yourself:eek::).

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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Tyler,
I'm a bit confused here. Who's shot would it be from this latest position?
I was proposing to shoot the 4 in from the initial position of this thread, and draw back. The picture I posted would be ideal execution, but in reality i think I would be at least about a ball's width from that side rail. So we were talking about replies to putting the cb over by the pocket; the other guys (the guy who needs them all) would be coming to the table to shoot from the above pictured position.
 

beatle

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putting that fourth ball in play is terrible imho. you might make a case if playing the best in the world but against two weaker players than that it means almost all times if you make a mistake you still might have an even game with that one ball left.

if you ever played someone good at the two rail kick when four or more balls are up there you would not be giving out the shot as you might find your now the dog.
 
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