what would you do

androd

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gulfportdoc said:
That's a great shot if the shooter needs both balls, AND if the cloth is new or in real good shape. On an old cloth, you'd have to have a stroke like John Schmidt's in order to draw the CB all the way back up table. Otherwise I'd use the conventional safety, as Rod illustrated.

I'll have to try Dick's shot. There could be a situation where that shot could come in handy.

Doc
Doc, When the balls on the spot are frozen, about one tip of low will get it started back pretty well, that being said, it seem to get harder to draw my ball as I get older. As I'm still paranoid, let me know if you have any problem with the kiss on the shot SJD discussed. I just never figured out where to put the CB. Cliff put it somewhere near where it is on the diagram.
PS; Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they didn't send someone around to take you off.
Rod. <------ still stupid enough to play strangers.
 

SJDinPHX

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androd said:
Doc, When the balls on the spot are frozen, about one tip of low will get it started back pretty well, that being said, it seem to get harder to draw my ball as I get older. As I'm still paranoid, let me know if you have any problem with the kiss on the shot SJD discussed. I just never figured out where to put the CB. Cliff put it somewhere near where it is on the diagram.
PS; Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they didn't send someone around to take you off.
Rod. <------ still stupid enough to play strangers.
Rod,

Your last statement after your sig. describes me to a "T"...(War story time)

About 7-8 years ago, (when I could still draw my ball) Scott Frost sent Richie Richeson in to try and trap me.

I knew he was a player, and recognized his name as soon some railbird (knocker) gave me a line on him.

As I found out later, Scott had given him strict instructions, not to give me any weight, and NOT to play me 1P on my pet 6 X 12 snooker table.

Well, RR could not get me down,even, on a pool table, but he did accept my challenge to play even 1P on big bertha.(short rack, 10 balls)

"Cloak and Dagger" pool hustling, being what it is, Scott did not come in 'til a few hours later.

RR was stuck $3500 when SF entered the joint.

Needless to say, Scott went ballistic. He pulled Richie up, and fired their last few barrells (plus an air barrell) at me himself.

I don't think Scott had a lot of 1P experience on a 6 X 12. Its amazing how even the straightest shooter's can get weak shooting off the end rail 10-12 ft. away, almost every shot.

If this sounds like bragging...so be it. It was just about my last hurrah, as far as a decent score is concerned, and it felt good.

My creed had always been to try and give some action to any scuff who came thru town wanting to play for some decent $$$. Eventually I learned there were probably 2-300 young guns running around the country, that I could no longer handle.

I tried most of them, up until about 5 years ago. Booked a few winners and a lot of losers. But even in losing, the young dudes did not have "no day at the beach". They earned it.

Dick <---misses those days...a lot ( and still has $$$$ left over)
 
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wincardona

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I agree

I agree

gulfportdoc said:
That's a great shot if the shooter needs both balls, AND if the cloth is new or in real good shape. On an old cloth, you'd have to have a stroke like John Schmidt's in order to draw the CB all the way back up table. Otherwise I'd use the conventional safety, as Rod illustrated.

I'll have to try Dick's shot. There could be a situation where that shot could come in handy.

Doc
I agree, it is a great shot when you need both balls, and it is a very good shot when you need only one ball, providing you know how to execute it. I believe that when two world class players are competing, and this situation arises (shooter needing one ball) the shooter should without hesitation choose this option over the sissy ball repositioning option. Now for players that don't execute that well the sissy ball repositioning option is the better choice. Not only because the shot requires a good hit with a fairly good stroke, but because lesser players will benifit more putting a ball out of play when they only need one opposed to better players. Balls are worth more to lesser players than they are to the better players. That's why I feel that between 2 good players this shot should be strongly cosidered when the shooter needs only one ball. Between 2 world class players, always shoot to win in this situation.

Now I would like to share with everyone how this shot should be executed.
The hit on this shot is the key, you want to place the cue ball in the position referenced, and hit almost a full ball (7/8 of the ball approx) drawing the cue ball back to the head rail as shown in the diagram. Don't make the commonly made mistake and draw the cue ball in or near the side or corner pocket. You can position the cue ball to more of a straighter angle for your starting position if you like. Practice this shot until you know what position the cue ball needs to be positioned, for you.

You never know, you may turn yourself away from a player shooting sissy shots into a player shooting more winning shots, maybe.
 
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androd

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Cowboy Dennis said:
I don't see any need to put three balls moving around and up & down the table IF I only need one ball. I agree with Rod's shot here. This is all I would do or have ever done needing one from here.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4CATq4IATa2PFyY4WATq4WCSv1WMjh4dATa4dWWk2kFyY3kAcR3kJtM@[/CUETABLE]
Dennis, I first saw this shot made by Fats, when I asked him about it, he said against inexperinced players, your next shot was often a relatively free long rail bank. Which he was very good with.
PS; This was before I'd seen the other shots.
Rod. <----Wasn't exactly Rods shot.
 

gulfportdoc

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androd said:
As I'm still paranoid, let me know if you have any problem with the kiss on the shot SJD discussed. I just never figured out where to put the CB. Cliff put it somewhere near where it is on the diagram.
Rod, I tried the shot this afternoon 15-20 times. There was a bad outcome 70% of the time. But now that I've re-read Dick's explanation, I see that I was hitting the head ball too thin-- more like the break shot in 3C. What he said is correct. Hitting it too thin oftentimes causes the head ball to bank towards the opponent's pocket. Next time at the poolroom I'll experiment with much thicker hits on the OB.

I assume Dick uses high inside english on the CB?

Doc
 

gulfportdoc

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wincardona said:
I agree, it is a great shot when you need both balls, and it is a very good shot when you need only one ball, providing you know how to execute it. I believe that when two world class players are competing, and this situation arises (shooter needing one ball) the shooter should without hesitation choose this option over the sissy ball repositioning option.
Billy, you've seen a helluva lot more 1P matches between top players than I. But in all the matches I've watched over the years, I don't recall seeing that shot played --when the shooter needs only one ball-- more than once or twice. I saw Shannon play it once, but I think he needed more than one ball.

Of course guys have favorite shots which they can execute with confidence, and perhaps this example is one of those for you. But with the exception of wizzard players like Frost, Efren, and Chohan, most everyone else is too fond of their money.

Doc
 

wincardona

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your correct

your correct

gulfportdoc said:
Billy, you've seen a helluva lot more 1P matches between top players than I. But in all the matches I've watched over the years, I don't recall seeing that shot played --when the shooter needs only one ball-- more than once or twice. I saw Shannon play it once, but I think he needed more than one ball.

Of course guys have favorite shots which they can execute with confidence, and perhaps this example is one of those for you. But with the exception of wizzard players like Frost, Efren, and Chohan, most everyone else is too fond of their money.

Doc
Doc, I agree with everything you said, but I didn't say that today's top players play that shot needing only one ball. What I said is that I feel that a world class player, playing another world class player should without hesitation shoot the shot. This is my opinion. I feel that this shot is too strong to pass up for a top player. If I were playing a top player and this situation developed, I wouldn't want him to play both balls, even if he needs only one. I think there is too much emphasis put on these type of situations, when two top players are competing, in terms of putting a ball out of play when the shooter needs only one.

Lets take a fair look at this situation in terms of percentages.

A top player will pocket either the head ball, or the back ball at least 30% of the time, agree? Let's say that this situation developes 10 times. Three times the shooter will win without his opponent getting a chance. The other 7 times I make the shooter a 9/5 favorite. approx 64% of the time. That puts the shooter winning approx. 7.5 games out of 10. That's 3/1. So the player shooting this shot will win three out of four games. Do you think that if the same players are playing, and the shooter plays the sissy ball repositioning shot he will win 75% of the time? Hell no.If my calculations are reasonably accurate, then playing the shot must be right. I feel that between two top players, if the safety shot is chosen, the favorite is at best a 2/1 favorite.
Even if the player shooting the shot to win, only makes one of the balls two out of ten times, he's still has a 714 winning %, opposed to a 666 win %for the player playing the sissy shot. The sissy shot has always been the shot of choice, for years. Maybe it's been the more popular option because people are afraid of change? Most people will not question things when they see other people doing it for a considerable amount of time, does that make them right? If ever you find something that is not recognized as right, and you choose to go against the grain, if you happen to be right you will really get paid off. I think playing this shot is right.
 

senor

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wincardona said:
I think there is too much emphasis put on these type of situations, when two top players are competing, in terms of putting a ball out of play when the shooter needs only one.

Lets take a fair look at this situation in terms of percentages.

A top player will pocket either the head ball, or the back ball at least 30% of the time, agree? Let's say that this situation developes 10 times. Three times the shooter will win without his opponent getting a chance. The other 7 times I make the shooter a 9/5 favorite. approx 64% of the time. That puts the shooter winning approx. 7.5 games out of 10. That's 3/1. So the player shooting this shot will win three out of four games. Do you think that if the same players are playing, and the shooter plays the sissy ball repositioning shot he will win 75% of the time? Hell no.If my calculations are reasonably accurate, then playing the shot must be right. I feel that between two top players, if the safety shot is chosen, the favorite is at best a 2/1 favorite.
Even if the player shooting the shot to win, only makes one of the balls two out of ten times, he's still has a 714 winning %, opposed to a 666 win %for the player playing the sissy shot. The sissy shot has always been the shot of choice, for years. Maybe it's been the more popular option because people are afraid of change? Most people will not question things when they see other people doing it for a considerable amount of time, does that make them right? If ever you find something that is not recognized as right, and you choose to go against the grain, if you happen to be right you will really get paid off. I think playing this shot is right.
If I may take this thought a bit further Billy, it sounds like you're driving home a point that I believed in as well. When there are two balls on the table, and two knowledgeable one pocket players and skillful pool players, the player needing one is a slight favorite at best. In other words, the player needing one should, within reason, play as if both players needed one. If this player needing one were driving balls downtown with a 7-4 lead in the game, and now the score is 7-6, the player needing one needs to be ready to change gears and starting to think more offensively. The shot diagrammed is an excellent example. I'm more liable to shoot the shot with follow, BTW. No fun drawing your ball in the humidity.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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senor said:
If I may take this thought a bit further Billy, it sounds like you're driving home a point that I believed in as well. When there are two balls on the table, and two knowledgeable one pocket players and skillful pool players, the player needing one is a slight favorite at best. In other words, the player needing one should, within reason, play as if both players needed one. If this player needing one were driving balls downtown with a 7-4 lead in the game, and now the score is 7-6, the player needing one needs to be ready to change gears and starting to think more offensively. The shot diagrammed is an excellent example. I'm more liable to shoot the shot with follow, BTW. No fun drawing your ball in the humidity.
I Shot This Shot 40 Years ago and I didnt see anyone else play it Its A force Follow Draw And Its A Good Shot And I Have Shot It In A Lot Of Other Situations Were I had to force they front ball forward. I shot this shot 40 years ago againsy Bugs And People Couldnt belive what I was Doing And If You Practice THe Shot you will get it down good. And Practice drawing the cue ball back to the end table. And Make Sure You hit the front baklll full ANd Dont Be afraid to draw theycue ball and dog the stroke. One More Thing On THis Shot Focuse On THe head ball hitting it full draw and the second ball will automatickly tahe its course all you have to do is concentrate on the head ball to the pocket and drawing the cue ball back. And THe Rest of the shot is aoutomatick. Draw the cue ball back like you are banking the ball up and down they table and drawing the cue ball to the end rail And You Need to practice tell the head ball takes they correct angle If they one ball is going to much to the side rail you are cutting the ball to much. And you need to hit the head ball fuller. And the draw is what pusses the head bsall in they correct angle. You Guys Can Set Up Easier situations were people can shoot the same shot with the same efect and a easier shot to practice.You can set he shot up close to your pocket and force the ball in the pocket. And The other ball will go around they table. I Will show you the shot as soon as I learn How To get it on they sight. But Some Other People CAn Set Up a shot like this and force the ball in the pocketb and run 8 and out by drawing the cue ball back for position. If You shot it enough Times you will get a feel for the shot. And howe full you have to hit the object ball. The Shot is A good shot to learn. And THe real safe shot needing one ball is ok too especialy for a week player that has trouble drawing the ball. Because if you cannot draw the ball you will not be vable to execuite the shot. I sugjest hitting the head ball about three quaters full and the head ball will go to the side rail and the second ball will go up and down the head table and try to freeze the cue ball on the rail. You should come real close every time you try the shot. Rolling the ball very slowly. And Try to get all three balls in line with each other that is also your goal on this shot. And Its almost imposable to make a mistake on this shot. This Shot is for people who realy want to squezze out the game.But You are putting your opponent on Deffense And You Can Dectate what to do from thier. Because You will have the move in your favor. I Hope I explained this shot Why To shot each shot and what you should do on each shot. And If You Can Out move your opponent you should do it the old fashioned way. And win the game by out manovering your opponent. But The first shot you can win wright away. But I explained both shots thouroly. Shoot Both Shoots Tell You get them correct. This shot will come up playing one pocket. If Your opponent scratches on your game ball is when the shot will come up the most. And practice shooting the same shot in different positions. Its Not only for this one situation. Shoot it tell you know exacly how to shoot both shots.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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3 to 1

3 to 1

Artie,

You still have 3 to 1 on coffee & donuts when you start posting on the All Zaniness site. Especially if you keep writing without spacing out new paragraphs. In fact, you got 4 to 1. Unless you've got a backer.

Lightning
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Artie,

You still have 3 to 1 on coffee & donuts when you start posting on the All Zaniness site. Especially if you keep writing without spacing out new paragraphs. In fact, you got 4 to 1. Unless you've got a backer.

Lightning
Since You Like My Style I Will Let You Be My Backer. But I Cant Figure Out jow Thier Site Works Yet And I Dont Want To Start Befofe I Know A Little Bit What I Am Doing. But I Will Get Thier Pretty Soon. I Hope The Like Me As Much AS all My Good Friends On One Pocket . Org. But I Dont understand Thier Posts Yet. But I Am Registered So As Soon As I figure It Out I Will Tell THem THat All My Friends Told Me That The Are looking For Perfesionall Help. But It Wont Be Too Long. I Still Am Trying To Get My Wie Table Diagrams up I Have Trouble With THe followeing the directions.But I want To Learn To Do That First. And One Pocket . Org Is My Home Court.
 

gulfportdoc

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wincardona said:
Doc, I agree with everything you said, but I didn't say that today's top players play that shot needing only one ball. What I said is that I feel that a world class player, playing another world class player should without hesitation shoot the shot.
I see the distinction that you've made. Your point is that, although top players do not shoot this shot needing only one ball, in your opinion they should shoot the shot. And further, that they should shoot it without hesitation.
A top player will pocket either the head ball, or the back ball at least 30% of the time, agree?
That's questionable. It might be that if a player routinely practices the shot, or if he shot it 10 times in a row, it's conceivable that he might make a ball 3 out of 10 tries on a good day. But faced with it a single time, for the cheese, a player may make one of the two balls only once or twice out of ten situations. Unless of course that player is Mike Massey.:) If you come over to Mobile in August, I'm going to set that shot up for you one time. I'll wager lunch that you don't make either ball. No practicing permitted.
The other 7 times I make the shooter a 9/5 favorite. approx 64% of the time. That puts the shooter winning approx. 7.5 games out of 10. That's 3/1. So the player shooting this shot will win three out of four games.
This is very creative calculating. Let's call it "Obama-math".:D Your percentages seem to be saying that the shooter wins with that shot 94% of the time (64%+30%). If so, I disagree. I think that the shooter is the favorite to win by virtue of the fact that he only needs one ball, whereas the opponent needs two. Those odds are increased by leaving the opponent in a jam with the traditional safety shot.

So the question might be posed like this: Should the shooter pass up an excellent safety that he can execute virtually every time, in order to take a shot that he can make 10-20% of the time for a chance to win the game; taking in to account that if missed, it's possible to leave the opponent a shot?

Maybe Artie will wade in here with his opinion of what the odds are. Until then, I'm headed to the poolroom to see what percentage of the time I can make either of the balls, AND/OR draw the CB back to the head rail.

Doc
 

senor

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gulfportdoc said:
It might be that if a player routinely practices the shot, or if he shot it 10 times in a row, it's conceivable that he might make a ball 3 out of 10 tries on a good day. But faced with it a single time, for the cheese, a player may make one of the two balls only once or twice out of ten situations. Unless of course that player is Mike Massey.:) If you come over to Mobile in August, I'm going to set that shot up for you one time. I'll wager lunch that you don't make either ball. No practicing permitted.

This is very creative calculating. Let's call it "Obama-math".:D Your percentages seem to be saying that the shooter wins with that shot 94% of the time (64%+30%). If so, I disagree. I think that the shooter is the favorite to win by virtue of the fact that he only needs one ball, whereas the opponent needs two. Those odds are increased by leaving the opponent in a jam with the traditional safety shot.

So the question might be posed like this: Should the shooter pass up an excellent safety that he can execute virtually every time, in order to take a shot that he can make 10-20% of the time for a chance to win the game; taking in to account that if missed, it's possible to leave the opponent a shot?

Maybe Artie will wade in here with his opinion of what the odds are. Until then, I'm headed to the poolroom to see what percentage of the time I can make either of the balls, AND/OR draw the CB back to the head rail.

Doc
Seems to me you've made some liberal interpretations of Cardone's logic. So who's Obamanating the conversation now ;) ? If Billy thinks a ball can be pocketed 3 times out of 10 tries, then it seems to me you would have to put up 2.3 lunches to his 1 to make the line right.

Also, Billy said that the player shooting this shot will win 75% of the time, not 94% of the time. I'm not sure if you were saying that sarcastically or erroneously. To further the point, and it's something I posted about somewhere in this thread, what kind of favorite is the player needing 1 who opts to play safe here? 60/40 would have to be the outer most limits and 52/48 the smallest margin I would surmise. While it's a solid safety that leaves your opponent no shot to win immediately, it is not difficult for the shooter to play safe from here, as well. Sometime if the next 4 or 5 innings, one of the players will be given the opportunity to either win the game or turn the tide severely in their favor. So, shooting the draw back shot to try to win immediately or put your opponent in an inescapable trap is a better option for Billy rather than wait 5 or 6 or 7 innings to see if you can beat your opponent to the shot.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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senor said:
Seems to me you've made some liberal interpretations of Cardone's logic. So who's Obamanating the conversation now ;) ? If Billy thinks a ball can be pocketed 3 times out of 10 tries, then it seems to me you would have to put up 2.3 lunches to his 1 to make the line right.

Also, Billy said that the player shooting this shot will win 75% of the time, not 94% of the time. I'm not sure if you were saying that sarcastically or erroneously. To further the point, and it's something I posted about somewhere in this thread, what kind of favorite is the player needing 1 who opts to play safe here? 60/40 would have to be the outer most limits and 52/48 the smallest margin I would surmise. While it's a solid safety that leaves your opponent no shot to win immediately, it is not difficult for the shooter to play safe from here, as well. Sometime if the next 4 or 5 innings, one of the players will be given the opportunity to either win the game or turn the tide severely in their favor. So, shooting the draw back shot to try to win immediately or put your opponent in an inescapable trap is a better option for Billy rather than wait 5 or 6 or 7 innings to see if you can beat your opponent to the shot.
What Makes The Shot A Good Shot Is Were All 3 Balls End Up Not Weather You Make THe Head Ball Once In Ten Shots Or # Times in TEn Shots. The Shot Is A Strong Shot Because You Are Positioning All 3 Balls. And Your Opponent Will Be On Deffense . This Shot Is Not For ABeginner or some player that has trouble drawing the cue ball. This is A Players Shot No Dought. And A Beginner Or A below Average player I Would Tell Him To Shot THe Safe Shot Needing One Ball. Leaning The Cue ball on the first dimond froze and the one ball on the side rail and the 2 ball goes up and down the table and try to get all 3 balls in line. And its hard to make a mistake on this shot. unless you cut the ball very thin then you will leave a easy cross corner. Playing a good player you should shoot to win especialy if the shot wins you the session.
 
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