What would be the ruling?

Frank Almanza

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This happened in one of the matches at the one pocket tournament at Stix today.
The match was between two fine and respectable players.
Player A early in the match pocketed a ball in player B's pocket. That ball remained in the tray for several turns.

Player A at some point managed to get an open shot and ran six balls. He looked at the balls in the tray and saw seven balls and then made one more ball. He believed he had made his game ball so he moved the cue ball. In my opinion he could have easily made position for another ball if he thought that he needed another ball.

Player B then remembers that one of the balls in the tray was his. Of course all now remember that player A did indeed pocket a ball for player B early in the game. The question now is what would be the ruling if there is ruling. Several options were discussed and finally Player B got his ball and play resumed from where player A had moved it to. Both players agreed to this since it was an honest mistake by both players. Player A for believing he had made eight balls and players B for not racking his ball to his bucket earlier.

The options discussed were to charge player A with a foul and put up a ball.
Put the cue ball back to where it was before the movement.
Let player B shoot from the new location of the cue ball.
Play the game over. ( I can't see doing that)
Someone said that after several turns at the table by both players that player B does not own that ball anymore. (I say what's his is his)

What's your call?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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This happen in one of the matches at the one pocket tournament at Stix today.
The match was between two fine and respectable players.
Player A early in the match pocketed a ball in player B's pocket. That ball remained in the tray for several turns.

Player A at some point managed to get an open shot and ran six balls. He looked at the balls in the tray and saw seven balls and then made one more ball. He believed he had made his game ball so he moved the cue ball. In my opinion he could have easily made position for another ball if he thought that he needed another ball.

Player B then remembers that one of the balls in the tray was his. Of course all now remember that player A did indeed pocket a ball for player B early in the game. The question now is what would be the ruling if there is ruling. Several options were discussed and finally Player got his ball and play resumed from where player A had moved it to. Both player agreed to this since it was an honest mistake by both players. Player A for believing he had made eight balls and players B for not racking his ball to his bucket earlier.

The options discussed were to charge player A with a foul and put up a ball.
Put the cue ball back to where it was before the movement.
Let player B shoot from the new location of the cue ball.
Play the game over. ( I can't see doing that)
Someone said that after several turns at the table by both players that player B does not own that ball anymore. (I say what's his is his)

What's your call?
Definitely charge Player 'A' with a foul and put up a ball. It's his job & responsibility to know his ball count. But, poolplayers ain't too big on being responsible for their own actions.

Player 'B' did nothing wrong.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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I would think the call here is game is over, player A wins. Player B must get that ball out. He made a mistake. Think about it, by not clearing that ball out (player b's responsibility), player A has now totally changed his shot and position selection as a result. I notice a lot of times our rules don't hurt the person who made a mistake, and I think this is wrong. That is how we should approach making/changing/interpreting the rules imo, ie the guy who messes up actually have something bad happen to him (when in doubt). It sounds common sense, but many times our rules dictate the opposite.

In any case, the fact that he could have potentially played position for another ball means nothing to me.
 

beatle

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dennis is right. b made a mistake by not picking up his ball. but it is a mistake that isnt charged against you.

a made the big mistake of not knowing his own score.
 

petie

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I'm with Tyler. How different is this to the old sharking tactic of telling your opponent he only needs one ball when he really needs two? That is loss of game at DCC I believe.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I'm with Tyler. How different is this to the old sharking tactic of telling your opponent he only needs one ball when he really needs two? That is loss of game at DCC I believe.
Petie,

The shooter in One-Pocket always knows how many balls he has. It's different from your scenarios because it's not the same. It has always & forever been the shooter's responsibility to know his ball count. You don't ever run 7 and think you ran 8. We all know when we get to 8.

Frank said the guy could've easily played shapes for another ball so it seems an honest mistake but not one the seated player should pay for.

One more thing; the shooter shot the ball in Player B's pocket so he also shared responsibility for removing the ball or seeing that it was removed. As far as I'm concerned it's both players's responsibility to see the ball-return cleared at the end of every inning.

This scenario and others like it are why I don't gamble on ball-return tables.

Dennis
 

NH Steve

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Something very similar happened at DCC in a match at the old E-West between youngster Sylver Ochoa and veteran Buddy Hall in 2005. Ochoa had slept a ball (left it in the tray, because the Diamonds are ball return tables), and an inning or so later Buddy ran a couple and put all the balls in the common tray into his own scoring rack. Then Ochoa shot some more and getting close to out, he counted his balls and realized one of his had ended up in Buddy's score. They went back and forth for a while and then Ochoa called over an official who ruled in favor of Buddy. Their ruling was too much time (innings) had elapsed so there was no way to verify Ochoa's claim. Basically, "Possession is 9/10's of the law."

One point here that is different in the situation Frank relates, is that in this case, both the players apparently agreed to bend a little. If they were not willing to bend it gets a little stickier. Certainly if player B conceded at all, the game would be over, with player A having won. Also if there was any misleading statements made by player B, the game would be over.

I think that the passage of several innings does take player A off the hook to a significant degree, so I agree with the compromise decision. I don't see how player A is out if both players agree he only has 7 balls. On the other hand, our own rules say moving one ball thinking the game is over is not, but moving two or more is loss of game if they do it on their own without the opponent saying anything. But certainly could be considered a foul for moving the cue ball.

Anyway here is Ochoa pleading with the official, with Buddy in the background...
 

piggybank04

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this is exactly why i always remove the balls i made to my side immediately.......
 

Tom Wirth

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This kind of thing is happening more frequently in recent years. A similar situation occurred at this past US Open in Vegas involving Corey. I like the possession 9/10 the law rule after several innings have past.

There is little difference between the player who forgets to pick up his balls and the player who fails to recognize fouls by the opponent. By leaving that ball in the collection box that player could be setting up a pretty sleazy move.
It is a players obligation to protect what's his at the time he acquires it not after the other player has run what appears to have been enough balls to win the game.

JMO,

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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This kind of thing is happening more frequently in recent years. A similar situation occurred at this past US Open in Vegas involving Corey. I like the possession 9/10 the law rule after several innings have past.

There is little difference between the player who forgets to pick up his balls and the player who fails to recognize fouls by the opponent. By leaving that ball in the collection box that player could be setting up a pretty sleazy move.
It is a players obligation to protect what's his at the time he acquires it not after the other player has run what appears to have been enough balls to win the game.

JMO,

Tom
Tom,

Player 'A' shot the ball in player 'B''s pocket. At that point it was both players's responsibility to remove that ball to Player 'B''s tray.

Player 'A' could've also been setting up a "sleazy move" as you call it. Just because 'B' was in a chair doesn't mean he's the one pulling the move.

If both players do their jobs and take responsibility for their actions then things like this would never happen.

All in all, both players went brain-dead after 'A' shot the ball in pocket 'B'.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Something very similar happened at DCC in a match at the old E-West between youngster Sylver Ochoa and veteran Buddy Hall in 2005. Ochoa had slept a ball (left it in the tray, because the Diamonds are ball return tables), and an inning or so later Buddy ran a couple and put all the balls in the common tray into his own scoring rack. Then Ochoa shot some more and getting close to out, he counted his balls and realized one of his had ended up in Buddy's score. They went back and forth for a while and then Ochoa called over an official who ruled in favor of Buddy. Their ruling was too much time (innings) had elapsed so there was no way to verify Ochoa's claim. Basically, "Possession is 9/10's of the law."
I agree the referee made the right call. Not only did Sylver shoot but then Buddy shot and Sylver shot again? It's definitely too much time passage to argue for the ball now.

P.S. All One-Pocket players know many balls they just ran and they know how many they have. You don't run 3 and pull out 4 and just figure it's yours. Buddy Hall knew that there was one ball too many in the tray and if he had any class he would've given it to Ochoa. On the other hand maybe Buddy thought it was a cheeseburger.

Dennis
 

SactownTom

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Player A at some point managed to get an open shot and ran six balls. He looked at the balls in the tray and saw seven balls and then made one more ball. He believed he had made his game ball so he moved the cue ball. In my opinion he could have easily made position for another ball if he thought that he needed another ball.


What's your call?
According to the tournament rules, moving the cue ball is a foul. If the shooter had also moved the remaining ball(s) on the table this would be an act of 'concession'. Player would lose the game.

In gambling, this agreement of 'accidental' movement 'no harm no foul' is IMO a good call, cue ball restored, continued shooting.
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom,

Player 'A' shot the ball in player 'B''s pocket. At that point it was both players's responsibility to remove that ball to Player 'B''s tray.

Player 'A' could've also been setting up a "sleazy move" as you call it. Just because 'B' was in a chair doesn't mean he's the one pulling the move.

If both players do their jobs and take responsibility for their actions then things like this would never happen.

All in all, both players went brain-dead after 'A' shot the ball in pocket 'B'.

Dennis
Dennis, I disagree with your first two points. It is not up to player A to place player Bs ball in his ball tray although to avoid potential problems it would be wise of A to remind B one time of the unclaimed ball. I take care of my own and I let my opponent take care of his own. What's mine is mine and what's his is his. Player A can make no move from this scenario if player B does his job and pick up his ball and take credit for it.

I agree completely with your last point.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Tom,

Point #1 Player 'A' shot the ball in player 'B''s pocket. At that point it was both players's responsibility to remove that ball to Player 'B''s tray.

Point #2Player 'A' could've also been setting up a "sleazy move" as you call it. Just because 'B' was in a chair doesn't mean he's the one pulling the move.

Point #3If both players do their jobs and take responsibility for their actions then things like this would never happen.

Point #4All in all, both players went brain-dead after 'A' shot the ball in pocket 'B'.

Dennis
Dennis, I disagree with your first two points. It is not up to player A to place player Bs ball in his ball tray although to avoid potential problems it would be wise of A to remind B one time of the unclaimed ball. I take care of my own and I let my opponent take care of his own. What's mine is mine and what's his is his. Player A can make no move from this scenario if player B does his job and pick up his ball and take credit for it.

I agree completely with your last point.

Tom
Tom,

You didn't explain why you disagree with my point #2.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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According to the tournament rules, moving the cue ball is a foul. If the shooter had also moved the remaining ball(s) on the table this would be an act of 'concession'. Player would lose the game.

In gambling, this agreement of 'accidental' movement 'no harm no foul' is IMO a good call, cue ball restored, continued shooting.
I've never heard of any player agreeing to gamble this way. It wouldn't happen here. West-Coasters must be different.

You pick up the cueball and it's a foul. Very simple.

Dennis
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom,

You didn't explain why you disagree with my point #2.

Dennis
Dennis, As I said before, perpetrating a move of this type for player "A" is entirely contingent on player "B" failing in his duty to keep the ball count correct. If player "A" attempts to take credit for the ball owned by "B" how can "A" know "B" is not attempting a move of his own? He can't. Therefore it is in "A"s best interest to keep the ball count correct. "A" is obviously ahead in ball count in the majority of these situations so why risk the possible controversy? However, this doesn't mean it can't happen. People do stupid things all the time, but in my opinion a lame ass play like this is more likely used by the player losing the game, player "B".

Anyway, this is my take on it and I'm sticking to it. :D

Tom
 

backplaying

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Dennis, As I said before, perpetrating a move of this type for player "A" is entirely contingent on player "B" failing in his duty to keep the ball count correct. If player "A" attempts to take credit for the ball owned by "B" how can "A" know "B" is not attempting a move of his own? He can't. Therefore it is in "A"s best interest to keep the ball count correct. "A" is obviously ahead in ball count in the majority of these situations so why risk the possible controversy? However, this doesn't mean it can't happen. People do stupid things all the time, but in my opinion a lame ass play like this is more likely used by the player losing the game, player "B".

Anyway, this is my take on it and I'm sticking to it. :D

Tom
I agree, I don't think its player A's job to mess with player B's ball, even if player A shot it in player B's hole. I would think this could go several ways, from calling a foul for moving the cue ball, and player B putting the cue ball back where he thought it was, to what they actually did, or player b having the option to putting the cue ball back where it was without calling a foul.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Dennis, As I said before, perpetrating a move of this type for player "A" is entirely contingent on player "B" failing in his duty to keep the ball count correct. If player "A" attempts to take credit for the ball owned by "B" how can "A" know "B" is not attempting a move of his own? He can't. Therefore it is in "A"s best interest to keep the ball count correct. "A" is obviously ahead in ball count in the majority of these situations so why risk the possible controversy? However, this doesn't mean it can't happen. People do stupid things all the time, but in my opinion a lame ass play like this is more likely used by the player losing the game, player "B".

Anyway, this is my take on it and I'm sticking to it. :D

Tom
Tom,

It is the duty of both players to see the ball-return tray cleared after every inning by either player, but, as usual, nobody wants to assign responsibility to the players. How many times have you watched two guys play and and ball is made in an uptable pocket and neither of them notices it? I'll bet you've seen that happen plenty of times. That's only one of the reasons it's the responsibility of both players to clear the ball-return tray after every inning. If they did this then there would never be a problem.

In my experience it's the shooting player who ends up trying to take an unearned ball when he realizes his opponent left one in the tray. I've seen it many times and sometimes it's not noticed.

This guy ran 6 balls and knew it but he still looked in the tray and figured he had 7. That doesn't add up to me. You know when you run 6. You don't think "oh jeez, I ran 6, now I only need 1 more".

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I agree, I don't think its player A's job to mess with player B's ball, even if player A shot it in player B's hole. I would think this could go several ways, from calling a foul for moving the cue ball, and player B putting the cue ball back where he thought it was, to what they actually did, or player b having the option to putting the cue ball back where it was without calling a foul.
Player 'A' doesn't have to "mess with" B's ball. He just has to tell him to remove it to his storage area. He knew it was in the tray and he knew that 'B' hadn't removed it. It wasn't a secret.
 

petie

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Player 'A' doesn't have to "mess with" B's ball. He just has to tell him to remove it to his storage area. He knew it was in the tray and he knew that 'B' hadn't removed it. It wasn't a secret.
Player B could/should be held responsible for not keeping his ball score correct also. If he doesn't say anything, he is trying to have it both ways--whichever does him the most benefit. When Player A ran out, he had 8 balls in his pocket. End of game. If it was on video, possible rethink.
 
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