What is the rule?

James Galati

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Nov 6, 2007
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Player A makes a long bank into his pocket, the cue ends up table on the rail. He now slow rolls the cue attempting to make a ball by his hole, he misses, leaving the missed ball an inch from his hole on the short rail, leaving player B an open table. Player A does not take the bank he made out of the return tray. Player B proceeds to run 4 balls, LOOKS into the return tray to see HOW MANY BALLS he needs. He takes the 5 balls out of the tray and puts them in his rack. Player A stays in his chair and says nothing. Player B makes 3 more balls, walks over to the score cards and turns over a card, making it 3-3. Player A gets up and says to player B "You need one, I made one of those balls" Player B thought he won the game, now he smiles and looks upset. When Player B made what he thought was his winning ball, where the cue ended, he could not see player A's ball that was close to player A's hole to knock it away from that position. The game continued with player A winning that game to win the set 4-2. If player B had protested at the point when he thought he won the game, what would be the ruling?
 

gulfportdoc

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Player A makes a long bank into his pocket, the cue ends up table on the rail. He now slow rolls the cue attempting to make a ball by his hole, he misses, leaving the missed ball an inch from his hole on the short rail, leaving player B an open table. Player A does not take the bank he made out of the return tray. Player B proceeds to run 4 balls, LOOKS into the return tray to see HOW MANY BALLS he needs. He takes the 5 balls out of the tray and puts them in his rack. Player A stays in his chair and says nothing. Player B makes 3 more balls, walks over to the score cards and turns over a card, making it 3-3. Player A gets up and says to player B "You need one, I made one of those balls" Player B thought he won the game, now he smiles and looks upset. When Player B made what he thought was his winning ball, where the cue ended, he could not see player A's ball that was close to player A's hole to knock it away from that position. The game continued with player A winning that game to win the set 4-2. If player B had protested at the point when he thought he won the game, what would be the ruling?
10. KEEPING SCORE

10.1 It is the responsibility of the shooting player to verify their own ball count as they approach their out ball, and the non-shooting player should avoid making comments about how many balls are needed. However, if the non-shooting player disturbs the balls, or breaks down their stick, or in the judgment of the acting official otherwise significantly disturbs the shooter in the assumption that the shooter is already out, such acts are considered a concession, and the shooter is considered to have won, regardless of whether a subsequent count reveals that more balls are needed. Likewise, if it can be verified that the non-shooting player’s mistaken statement of the number of balls needed leads directly to the shooter pocketing said number of balls and the assumption of the game being over, then the shooter wins, even if it is subsequently determined that the non-shooting player’s statement of balls needed was in error.


I believe that it would be ruled in favor of Player A in either scenario. It's up to the shooter to verify his ball count. Irrespective of the fact that he did not verify, he still needs a ball. His turn should have continued his inning if he was on a run. [note that Player A kept his mouth shut, and neither player disturbed the balls]

It's easy to cloud up the situation with "he should have's, he could have's...", but the rule is pretty clear. There again, it depends under whose rules the match was played.

Doc
 

beatle

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Doc is right. You are responsible for your own count. Tournament or cash game. The only argument can come if one of your balls was taken and kept for a few innings and then he ran out and you decided to notice.
 

James Galati

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Nov 6, 2007
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35
The rule

The rule

IMHO I think it became a MOVE on player A's part when player B took what he thought were HIS 5 balls out of the return and player A said NOTHING. Player B was focused on the layout, Player A was in his chair. When Player B took the balls out of the return, player A should have said "I have one ball". I think he intentionally was coy, waiting for player B to notice. It was, in the least, poor sportsmanship, and at worst, a MOVE. I think the lesson here is, when you think you've won the game, put your balls on the table without disturbing the balls still in play.
 

8andout

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Apr 27, 2012
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this is one reason i don't like return ball tables. but thats something i'll have to deal with.
 

gulfportdoc

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this is one reason i don't like return ball tables. but thats something i'll have to deal with.
I agree. That's a good reason to favor drop pocket tables. It's much harder to steal a ball from the other guy's stash, when that stash is in a side pocket in plain view of God and everyone.;)

I actually had a guy pull that on me at one of our 1P tournaments. He stole a ball from my ball rack and put it in his. And I was the friggin T.D.!!:rolleyes:

I also like the drop pockets because a player doesn't have to bend down to retrieve or rack balls. And most Diamond tables will hold a full 15 balls in the corner pockets. Who needs the back strain?

~Doc
 

jtompilot

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Feb 17, 2009
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For the GC tables a ball divider can be made and placed in the collection area that divides the return balls.
 

Frank Almanza

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Aug 31, 2005
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Heh, heh. NOBODY has one one like THAT, Frank-- even has a light! Only an excellent designer and cabinet maker like you would build one.:)

Doc
Thanks Doc, the divider folds up in one second for playing other games other that one hole.
I got tired of seeing my balls disappear. I'm not saying it's done on purpose but you never know with some of the characters that come to my house. Just kidding, only good guys come over.
 
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